New posts

Boulder CO - Another Mass Shooting

March 25, 2021, 2:05 p.m.
tashi
Posts: 2539
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: tashi

This right here. 

This is how the NRA uses the word responsible. 

By their definition, the people doing these things are irresponsible gun owners.

It’s a specious argument.

I found this article interesting, look at what countries America lines up with WRT gun violence. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/03/24/980838151/gun-violence-deaths-how-the-u-s-compares-to-the-rest-of-the-world

Yup, but you can't lump every gun owner into one basket of numb nuts. The idea of responsible gun owners is not a specious argument, but I would agree that it can be applied in a specious manner.

Okay, it’s “applied in a specious manner” by the NRA then. I should have phrased it better because I was referring to how the NRA uses that argument.

March 25, 2021, 2:07 p.m.
tashi
Posts: 2539
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Realistically how often does that happen? You're just hypothesizing to feed your own narrative of dislike for gun owners and the gun lobby  - which is fair - but using bad arguments to counter their bad arguments doesn't win any points.

Or he’s recognizing that anyone can flip out and it’s safer all around if it’s harder to get a gun at those times. 

I would have killed a guy by now if I had a gun. Instead I’ve caught a couple beatings and calmed down and no one has died.

March 25, 2021, 2:08 p.m.
syncro
syncro
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

yeah the comparisons to conflict zones or regions with poor governmental structures are wholly irrelevant. The comparisons that matter are to other industrialized nations with stable governments and ideally are democracies. So places like most of Europe, Canada, Austrailia, etc are valid comparisons.

March 25, 2021, 2:15 p.m.
syncro
syncro
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tashi

Posted by: syncro

Realistically how often does that happen? You're just hypothesizing to feed your own narrative of dislike for gun owners and the gun lobby  - which is fair - but using bad arguments to counter their bad arguments doesn't win any points.

Or he’s recognizing that anyone can flip out and it’s safer all around if it’s harder to get a gun at those times. 

I would have killed a guy by now if I had a gun. Instead I’ve caught a couple beatings and calmed down and no one has died.

I'm not saying that can't happen, but let's not make it out like that's the biggest concern when it comes to gun violence.

It's one thing to talk about "if I had a gun I might have killed someone" but unless you're actually in that situation I think it's hard to know whether you'd actually go pick up a gun and pull the trigger.

Instead of trying to justify gun control with bad arguments use good ones. And of course those arguments have been made and the debate is over imo, the US just needs to get it's shit together and do what's in the best interests of all it's people. That's not going to happen tho as long as one of the pillars of American culture is indvidualism - personal freedom and liberty over collective well being.

March 25, 2021, 3 p.m.
tashi
Posts: 2539
Joined: April 25, 2003

I don't think you're listening to what I'm saying, but that's fine.  Your mind is made up, carry on.

March 25, 2021, 3:30 p.m.
syncro
syncro
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Well that's a nice fuck you passive aggressive attitude.

So what am I missing? I acknowledged that Ken's point has some validity to it and I've already stated that I believe better gun regulations are needed - I've been saying that for years in these discussions. So in light of that, what am I getting wrong with what you've said? Or maybe the shoe is on the other foot and you're misinterpreting what I've said?


 Last edited by: syncro on March 25, 2021, 3:30 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
March 25, 2021, 3:44 p.m.
three-sheets
Posts: 15758
Joined: May 29, 2004

Love it when non gun owners debate gun laws.

There is absolutley nothing wrong with Canadian gun laws. Fuck the states, they made their bed, they can lay in it.

March 25, 2021, 4 p.m.
syncro
syncro
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: three-sheets

Love it when non gun owners debate gun laws.

There is absolutley nothing wrong with Canadian gun laws. Fuck the states, they made their bed, they can lay in it.

Just because someone doesn't own a gun it doesn't mean they aren't aware of what the laws are.

March 25, 2021, 4:45 p.m.
tashi
Posts: 2539
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: syncro

Well that's a nice fuck you passive aggressive attitude.

So what am I missing? I acknowledged that Ken's point has some validity to it and I've already stated that I believe better gun regulations are needed - I've been saying that for years in these discussions. So in light of that, what am I getting wrong with what you've said? Or maybe the shoe is on the other foot and you're misinterpreting what I've said?

I probably am misinterpreting it. 

I do know what it’s like to fear for my life and want to kill to protect myself. You didn’t listen to that, so you blew it off as a “bad arguement”.  It’s not. People act in the heat of the moment all the time and if a gun is available, it gets used and the consequences are often more serious than if no gun were available.

America has too many guns, it really is that simple.

March 25, 2021, 5:15 p.m.
syncro
syncro
Posts: 3154
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: tashi

I probably am misinterpreting it. 

I do know what it’s like to fear for my life and want to kill to protect myself. You didn’t listen to that, so you blew it off as a “bad arguement”.  It’s not. People act in the heat of the moment all the time and if a gun is available, it gets used and the consequences are often more serious than if no gun were available.

America has too many guns, it really is that simple.

Ok that makes way more sense to me now. In the previous post it didn't come across as a fear for life type of thing and I thought you were the instigator, not the one who was attacked.

March 25, 2021, 8:15 p.m.
tungsten
tungsten
Posts: 3834
Joined: May 23, 2006

Posted by: tashi

America has too many guns, it really is that simple.

Sure but, if you took away all the guns America would probably lead the world in knife homicides. Or chainsaws. Hammers maybe.

“violent socialization”.... https://www.howardsmead.com/why_we_americans_are_so_violent.htm

https://www.hcn.org/articles/guns-mass-shootings-are-a-product-of-americas-violent-culture


 Last edited by: tungsten on March 25, 2021, 11:47 p.m., edited 3 times in total.
March 25, 2021, 9:09 p.m.
tashi
Posts: 2539
Joined: April 25, 2003

Posted by: tungsten

Posted by: tashi

America has too many guns, it really is that simple.

Sure but, if you took away all the guns America would probably lead the world in knife homicides. Or chainsaws. Hammers maybe.

“violent socialization”.... https://www.howardsmead.com/why_we_americans_are_so_violent.htm

I mean, maybe, but fewer dead Americans probably. Guns are waaaaay more effective at killing than tools.

March 26, 2021, 7:25 a.m.
Couch_Surfer
Posts: 14922
Joined: Feb. 19, 2003

Posted by: tungsten

Posted by: tashi

America has too many guns, it really is that simple.

Sure but, if you took away all the guns America would probably lead the world in knife homicides. Or chainsaws. Hammers maybe.

“violent socialization”.... https://www.howardsmead.com/why_we_americans_are_so_violent.htm

https://www.hcn.org/articles/guns-mass-shootings-are-a-product-of-americas-violent-culture

The NRA loves this garbage talking point.

Makes a conclusion without data and without even running the experiment.  We have data on all the other countries that regulate their firearms and the amount of gun deaths is far less.  They don't turn into countries filled with knife/chainsaw/hammer mass killings events.  

Also, you can fix both.  It's not an either/or decision.  Regulate the guns AND fix their shitty socialization.

March 26, 2021, 7:58 a.m.
switch
Posts: 34067
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Posted by: three-sheets

Love it when non gun owners debate gun laws.

That's a pretty dumb and arrogant statement.

March 26, 2021, 8:56 a.m.
chupacabra
chupacabra
Posts: 12253
Joined: June 29, 2006

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: chupacabra

Responsible gun owners don't commit any of the crimes with the guns or they lose their "responsible" adjective.  But pretty much all the illegal guns started as legal ones so their point is complete bullshit when you include their other argument that they don't want any additional regulations like registration, licensing or tracking.

For sure. I'm not arguing against additional regulations and think they are dearly needed. The biggest problem in the US though is the amount of oversight that states have vs the feds. Unless there are consistent laws for all states you'll have the problem of guns being easily bought in a jurisdiction with lax regulations and transported to another with strict regulations. The perfect example of this is Illinois and Indiana. I honestly think the situation will never improve unless the US has another civil war or breaks up into some number of smaller countries. The attitudes and beliefs are just too disparate across the nation as a whole.

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-chicago-gets-its-guns

It is amazing how far apart they are, but the real difference in culture seems to be rural vs urban.  Where states have large cities that overwhelm their government and culture like Chicago does in Illinois you get more liberal attitudes where states like Indiana with smallish cities like Indianapolis and Gary they keep the rural attitudes.  As the cities grow things will likely change... maybe.

Forum jump: