Books (not Boobs)

Posted by: syncro

Considering the protest my comments have elicited I might just have to do it. All of the reviews/articles I've read (both pos and neg) have said it's a fun read, the difference is the neg reviews call into question notable inaccuracies or failings with his ideas. I had a different take on the first review and didn't see it pushing intelligent design. What was the point that the author of the second article missed in debunking Harari's take on agriculture? The summary that James clear provides leaves me feeling that Sapiens leaves more questions unanswered than it tried to answer and the neg reviews I've looked at seem to confirm that. Maybe my thoughts will change after reading Sapiens, but based on how I like to digest info I would guess not. That doesn't mean I won't see it as a fun read, but that I'll look at it more as fiction than non-fiction.

I don't know, to me the first review is very clearly coming from the ID angle. The author is an ID evangelist.

To understand the point missed by the second review, again I'd suggest reading the book first. It's somewhat pointless to discuss a book review if you haven't read the book being reviewed?

I have zero doubt that legit scientists will find inaccuracies in Harari's books. He basically aggregated his philosophical musings about pretty much everything into his own personal holistic view on the world and humankind. When you link all the dots like that I think it's inevitable to have to interpolate some areas that are unknown. If anything it makes it more interesting IMHO. A lot of it made sense to me, some of it didn't. Altogether, as said before, I thought it was entertaining and thought-provoking. His follow-up book Homo Deus takes that concept to the next level and describes a possible future of humankind.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: chupacabra

I think I might have posted this before, but since we are on the book topic I highly recommend Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. It ties together the 100K years or so of humankind into a condensed history and shows how it leads into our modern history. He has a couple follow-up books as well but Sapiens was the best IMO.

I picked this up based on recommendations from here (maybe even yours) but have not read it yet and might not even bother considering the level of negative reviews it's picked up.

"While reading it I consistently thought to myself, “This book is light on science and data, and heavy on fact-free story-telling — and no wonder since many of his arguments are steeped in data-free evolutionary psychology!” So I decided to look up the book’s Wikipedia page to see if other people felt the same way. Turns out they did — and the reviews from academics have been devastating. Anthropologist Christopher Robert Hallpike reviewed the book [Sapiens] and did not find any “serious contribution to knowledge”. Hallpike suggested that “…whenever his facts are broadly correct they are not new, and whenever he tries to strike out on his own he often gets things wrong, sometimes seriously”. He considered it an infotainment publishing event offering a “wild intellectual ride across the landscape of history, dotted with sensational displays of speculation, and ending with blood-curdling predictions about human destiny.”"

https://www.discovery.org/a/review-of-yuval-noah-hararis-sapiens/

More...

https://medium.com/@abigail.cox/the-issue-with-hararis-sapiens-21af4b859df4

Just read it. I stand by my opinion on the book and you know my feelings towards academics and their hubris as the arbiters of knowledge. It's a great book and the academic dogpile has some merit, but it is also a lot of the usual pearl-clutching when anyone goes big and speculates in a way that their establishment doesn't condone. Before reading it (just do it) consider how contentious the topic of our ancient past is. The Clovis culture was considered the first people of the Americas and despite site after site showing older dates than Clovis, it remained the dogma of the academic community for decades and it is just now being toppled. Even when DNA studies bring new evidence it is often ignored so that they don't have to re-write their papers. Anthropologists and archeologists like to believe that they are the only ones qualified to speculate on our past even though they work in a field where they might have a dozen pieces to a 1000-piece puzzle and they are not experts on puzzles. I could go on about this subject, but I will spare everyone the rant.

Reviewers have their own agendas, so take their criticism with a grain of salt and see if they are really qualified to judge. For example, discovery.org is a Christian group and the critique you posted was written by a man that believes in intelligent design. Harari is an atheist, so his take on the history of mankind and the importance of religion and faith is likely going to be a bit different. He says so in his article.

In 2001, Luskin co-founded the Intelligent Design and Evolution Awareness (IDEA) Center, a non-profit helping students to investigate evolution by starting "IDEA Clubs" on college and high school campuses. Casey and the IDEA Club movement he co-founded were featured in the April 27, 2005 cover story of the journal Nature.

Posted by: [email protected]

I don't know, to me the first review is very clearly coming from the ID angle. The author is an ID evangelist.

To understand the point missed by the second review, again I'd suggest reading the book first. It's somewhat pointless to discuss a book review if you haven't read the book being reviewed?

I have zero doubt that legit scientists will find inaccuracies in Harari's books. He basically aggregated his philosophical musings about pretty much everything into his own personal holistic view on the world and humankind. When you link all the dots like that I think it's inevitable to have to interpolate some areas that are unknown. If anything it makes it more interesting IMHO. A lot of it made sense to me, some of it didn't. Altogether, as said before, I thought it was entertaining and thought-provoking. His follow-up book Homo Deus takes that concept to the next level and describes a possible future of humankind.

Yeah, saw the ID thing on his page, but didn't really get that from the review with the exception of one small part.

I'll use reviews to help make a choice about something - movies, books, restuarants, bikes, bike parts, whatever. Look at enough reviews of something and you can get a decent sense of what's going on and whether it's worth investing the time/money required for said thing. The reviews I've read indicate that Sapiens is an interesting/fun read but has issues that some reviewers feel leaves the book falling short. That was basically what I said in my first post on this. Even though I have Sapiens on the shelf here at home I don't know if I'll read it as reviews I've read have removed the initial interest I had for it.

Posted by: chupacabra

Reviewers have their own agendas, so take their criticism with a grain of salt and see if they are really qualified to judge. For example, discovery.org is a Christian group and the critique you posted was written by a man that believes in intelligent design. Harari is an atheist, so his take on the history of mankind and the importance of religion and faith is likely going to be a bit different. He says so in his article.

Yup, Luskin's was one of may different reviews I had open, it was just one I picked for the quote I listed. There are many more reviews/critiques that have a dim look of Sapiens. I still might get around to reading it, just have others on deck first.

Posted by: syncro

I'll use reviews to help make a choice about something - movies, books, restuarants, bikes, bike parts, whatever. Look at enough reviews of something and you can get a decent sense of what's going on and whether it's worth investing the time/money required for said thing. The reviews I've read indicate that Sapiens is an interesting/fun read but has issues that some reviewers feel leaves the book falling short. That was basically what I said in my first post on this. Even though I have Sapiens on the shelf here at home I don't know if I'll read it as reviews I've read have removed the initial interest I had for it.

You are of course free to not read the book for any reason you think is valid.

Let's stick to discussing books we're actually reading.

I'm almost done with The Every. One of the distinct characteristics of the dystopian future it describes is social proof exclusively driving the decisions people make. Perhaps that future is already here ;-)

I am "reading" Dune Messiah as an audiobook but I think the material is a little too intricate to follow closely while driving.  

How are you liking The Every niels?  It looks interesting.  I think I will pick up The Circle and give it a go from there.

Posted by: syncro

Considering the protest my comments have elicited I might just have to do it

I wouldn't have pushed so hard but you already own it so why not?  :)  It is at the very least thought-provoking.

Posted by: chupacabra

Posted by: syncro

Considering the protest my comments have elicited I might just have to do it

I wouldn't have pushed so hard but you already own it so why not?  :)  It is at the very least thought-provoking.

Yeah, it's almost like you were channeling your inner used car salesman persona there for a sec.

Posted by: chupacabra

I am "reading" Dune Messiah as an audiobook but I think the material is a little too intricate to follow closely while driving.  

Enjoyed the first Dune novel (bought it after watching the movie - lol), but Messiah dragged on for me.

Posted by: chupacabra

How are you liking The Every niels?  It looks interesting.  I think I will pick up The Circle and give it a go from there.

I just finished it. I liked it better than The Circle but would recommend reading both. There is something about them walking a fine line between absurdism and dystopian realism that I found fascinating. Hilarious and depressing at the same time.

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Posted by: chupacabra

I am "reading" Dune Messiah as an audiobook but I think the material is a little too intricate to follow closely while driving.  

Enjoyed the first Dune novel (bought it after watching the movie - lol), but Messiah dragged on for me.

The rest of the series is the same.

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Posted by: chupacabra

I am "reading" Dune Messiah as an audiobook but I think the material is a little too intricate to follow closely while driving.  

Enjoyed the first Dune novel (bought it after watching the movie - lol), but Messiah dragged on for me.

Would not recommend reading anything beyond the first Dune.

Spoiler alert:

It drags on for 6 books, I mean just pages of philosophical ramblings where one vapid character muses about their place within the esoteric, eventually rolling downhill till it turns into the origin story for Jaba the Hut.

Posted by: Hepcat

Posted by: Couch_Surfer

Posted by: chupacabra

I am "reading" Dune Messiah as an audiobook but I think the material is a little too intricate to follow closely while driving.  

Enjoyed the first Dune novel (bought it after watching the movie - lol), but Messiah dragged on for me.

Would not recommend reading anything beyond the first Dune.

Spoiler alert:

It drags on for 6 books, I mean just pages of philosophical ramblings where one vapid character muses about their place within the esoteric, eventually rolling downhill till it turns into the origin story for Jaba the Hut.

Dune is one of my all-time favourites (I have read it three times), but I didn't read any of the sequels because I had heard they are not as good, although I know some people that love them.  I am reading Messiah now because it looks like it might make be part of the Villeneuve series of movies.  If I can find entertainment in the Silmarillion I am sure I will enjoy Messiah.

You might at that. Nearly killed me getting through the Silmarillion. 

Yeah, I've read Dune a few times too, near the top of the list. I mean I  read the rest of the series, it's not a particularly hard read, just pretty disappointing after the greatness of Dune.

I don't really read much sci-fi/ fantasy, but my wife has stacks of the stuff. The Blade Itself by Joe Abercrombie .https://joeabercrombie.com/books/the-blade-itself/ was the latest book I stole, and it was probably the best thing I've read in the genre since Game of Thrones. 3 book series that takes it's time with character development, so it picks up momentum to the point you can't put it down. Spoiler alert no dragons.