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The Running Thread

May 13, 2014, 11:53 a.m.
Posts: 60
Joined: Feb. 18, 2014

another solution would be talk to people who know a few things about running, read a few books on technique, check out some basic anatomy stuff, use common sense, pay attention to your body and stay more or less injury free without having to sue, bitch or moan that running is bad for your knees.

back on track - my run is in four weeks. Trail and forest road runs hover around the 10 - 15 km distance, time depending on whether I want to ramp up the intensity (10 km in hilly terrain in under 60 min. is somehow ok) or just run.

Yesterday I did my first long run on asphalt - today my legs hurt. Need to run more on asphalt.

only need to run more on asphalt if you plan on racing/running more on asphalt! i still run on asphalt sometimes and find the same…usually a bit tight or sore the next day. but i can run for over 4h or 25k-30km on hilly technical trails be physically drained but not sore at all the next day!

on the other hand i usually faceplant at least once a month.

May 13, 2014, 7:59 p.m.
Posts: 1186
Joined: Oct. 21, 2008

I'm the opposite. I do the majority of my runs on asphalt or a mix of asphalt/hard pack gravel… This past weekend I did 2 laps of Burnaby lake for my long run and was just spent. The amount of extra effort required running on the softer medium was noticeable right away and it sapped me.

On the plus side I figure that's a fantastic final long run before race day - more wear on the heart/lungs [HTML_REMOVED] muscles, less so on the joints.

May 14, 2014, 11:06 a.m.
Posts: 13023
Joined: Nov. 24, 2002

only need to run more on asphalt if you plan on racing/running more on asphalt! i still run on asphalt sometimes and find the same…usually a bit tight or sore the next day. but i can run for over 4h or 25k-30km on hilly technical trails be physically drained but not sore at all the next day!

on the other hand i usually faceplant at least once a month.

the faceplant…._with _or _without _your bike? Just curious….

"You don't learn from experience. You learn from reflecting on the experience."
- Kristen Ulmer

May 14, 2014, 11:17 a.m.
Posts: 93
Joined: Dec. 8, 2010

So….buy over built shoes one can get injuries. Buy minimalist running shoes and one gets a different type of injuries. Buy running flats and get different type of injuries as well.

Hmmm…… so no matter what type of shoes one buys you have the potential to get injured? The horror.

I suffered through a knee injury last year partially from trail running but also from bootcamp - lots of side loading movement - and age I suppose.
The specialist I saw said there wasn't much that could be done and he suggested taking up biking. I smiled.
What I did do was purchase the Hoka One One trail runners and while they have seemingly lessened the impact that my knee was subjected to they also haven't proven ideal on technical terrain. They feel decidedly unstable when cornering on descents particularly at the heel. Somewhat tippy feeling.
So my knee feels more protected but there are apparent trade-offs.

May 14, 2014, 1:08 p.m.
Posts: 7543
Joined: June 17, 2003

Aside from rock gardens, trails are better for my hips and knees. I have experienced sore knees and sore IT bands from aggressive technical runs. The side loading that LanceT is talking about. I try to focus on being as light on my feet and efficient as possible on technical sections.

"The song of a bird…We used to ask Ennesson to do bird calls. He could do them. How he could do them, and when he perished, along with him went all those birds…"-Return from the Stars, Stanislaw Lem

"We just walk around, and sometimes we go out and dance, and then we listen to the environment."-Ralf Hutter, Kraftwerk

May 14, 2014, 4:31 p.m.
Posts: 1186
Joined: Oct. 21, 2008

Maybe this is normal, or maybe I'm unusual; but I find that the faster I run, the better form it feels that I have.

And I'm not talking about the difference between "jogging" and "sprinting" I'm talking about a difference of maybe 20 to 30 seconds per kilometre.

One feels light and smooth. The other slow and plodding - where each step smacks down as thunderously as possible, shaving weeks if not months off the expected service life of my knees.

May 15, 2014, 5:12 p.m.
Posts: 2
Joined: March 12, 2009

Ok so there's tons of books, tons of articles online, but I still need help with running. My knees are messed up in a way that I won't fully understand until I get an MRI in a couple months. But, the doctor is pretty sure it's "just" PFS. Still pops all the time and hurts a Lot a lot of the time. He said to take Advil, use ice and keep doing what I want to do in the mean time. Possibly shitty advice but I'm gonna risk it.

But, I think it would be helpful if there was someone good who could help with my gate, etc. Anyone know of an actual person rather than book I could go see once or twice for some pointers?

May 15, 2014, 8:47 p.m.
Posts: 7707
Joined: Sept. 11, 2003

Maybe this is normal, or maybe I'm unusual; but I find that the faster I run, the better form it feels that I have.

And I'm not talking about the difference between "jogging" and "sprinting" I'm talking about a difference of maybe 20 to 30 seconds per kilometre.

One feels light and smooth. The other slow and plodding - where each step smacks down as thunderously as possible, shaving weeks if not months off the expected service life of my knees.

There is generally a point at which your "run economy" is optimal. Its where your gait, foot speed/turnover, impact of your footstrike, stride, rhythm, breathing etc all seem to come together. Of course, is affected by terrain too.

May 15, 2014, 8:52 p.m.
Posts: 7543
Joined: June 17, 2003

I have bad knees too. Doesn't bother me when cycling, but I really have to be conscious of my form when running in order to keep the pain manageable.

Advil is just masking the pain and not addressing biomechanic issues.

For the PFS (I've had it), go see a physiotherapist and do the exercises. I've had really good experiences with Lynn Valley Physio.

For the gait/form, have you done a lot of reading? I personally found the Chi Running book useful to get into good habits (high cadence, proper arm swing, forward lean, midfoot strike). I'm just a beginner myself but after six months of running, I feel I am more attuned to making adjustments so that I can keep the pain in check and run longer.

"The song of a bird…We used to ask Ennesson to do bird calls. He could do them. How he could do them, and when he perished, along with him went all those birds…"-Return from the Stars, Stanislaw Lem

"We just walk around, and sometimes we go out and dance, and then we listen to the environment."-Ralf Hutter, Kraftwerk

May 15, 2014, 8:58 p.m.
Posts: 7543
Joined: June 17, 2003

But, I think it would be helpful if there was someone good who could help with my gate, etc. Anyone know of an actual person rather than book I could go see once or twice for some pointers?

Are you running trails or road? If you're running on the road, switch to trails stat! The softer the better (grass and synthetic turf are ideal but the options are limited).

"The song of a bird…We used to ask Ennesson to do bird calls. He could do them. How he could do them, and when he perished, along with him went all those birds…"-Return from the Stars, Stanislaw Lem

"We just walk around, and sometimes we go out and dance, and then we listen to the environment."-Ralf Hutter, Kraftwerk

May 15, 2014, 9:52 p.m.
Posts: 1186
Joined: Oct. 21, 2008

There is generally a point at which your "run economy" is optimal. Its where your gait, foot speed/turnover, impact of your footstrike, stride, rhythm, breathing etc all seem to come together. Of course, is affected by terrain too.

That's why it frustrating when you let your cardio dip and then can't maintain the ideal speed for optimal economy…

errr

May 15, 2014, 11:05 p.m.
Posts: 2
Joined: March 12, 2009

There is generally a point at which your "run economy" is optimal. Its where your gait, foot speed/turnover, impact of your footstrike, stride, rhythm, breathing etc all seem to come together. Of course, is affected by terrain too.

Yeah I do find that too. if I don't run fast enough then my knee hurts a lot. I figured it has to do with where I'm landing on my foot, but that makes more sense that it would be a combination of all of that.

Are you running trails or road? If you're running on the road, switch to trails stat! The softer the better (grass and synthetic turf are ideal but the options are limited).

I run only uphill on the road. If it's flat, I can do it for a little while without pain, but even a little decline causes pain after 20 or 30 seconds. I know what you mean about the dirt reducing impact. Just can't handle the terrain changes though.

Physio just told me to strength train (did give specifics, but things I already do and not helping), gave me the electric sticky pad thing and showed me how to tape it. I took that to mean shrug…you're screwed. I tried one other place with not much better results. Will look into your recommendation for Lynn Valley Physio though.. Thx!

If anyone has a marathon/ultra marathon friend that I can get some advice from, send them my way. I will compensate a little if necessary.

May 15, 2014, 11:20 p.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

Maybe this is normal, or maybe I'm unusual; but I find that the faster I run, the better form it feels that I have.

And I'm not talking about the difference between "jogging" and "sprinting" I'm talking about a difference of maybe 20 to 30 seconds per kilometre.

One feels light and smooth. The other slow and plodding - where each step smacks down as thunderously as possible, shaving weeks if not months off the expected service life of my knees.

Don't have it in front of me but will look up the page number tomorrow.

Christopher McDougal who wrote that born to run did an experiment where he ran over a steel pressure plate to see what type of impact pressure he had as he ran. Bare foot had minimal impact while running in heavily cushioned shoes had the heaviest impact.

While it may seem insignificant. It matches what McGill Uni researchers discovered about impact forces and amount of padding or cushioning. They used gymnasts and discovered something interesting. That is the more padded the mat and more cushioned it felt under foot. The harder they landed instinctively. Basically the body is looking for stability on it's own and the more cushioning underneath the more the body will try to compensate for it….have a harder impact.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

May 15, 2014, 11:32 p.m.
Posts: 7543
Joined: June 17, 2003

I run only uphill on the road. If it's flat, I can do it for a little while without pain, but even a little decline causes pain after 20 or 30 seconds. I know what you mean about the dirt reducing impact. Just can't handle the terrain changes though.

Physio just told me to strength train (did give specifics, but things I already do and not helping), gave me the electric sticky pad thing and showed me how to tape it. I took that to mean shrug…you're screwed. I tried one other place with not much better results. Will look into your recommendation for Lynn Valley Physio though.. Thx!

If anyone has a marathon/ultra marathon friend that I can get some advice from, send them my way. I will compensate a little if necessary.

At Lynn Valley Physio ask to see Steve Brannon, he's very good and helped me get through PFS two separate times.

Seriously, get the Chi Running book from the library and it will at least give you a lot to think about. His whole emphasis is on running pain and injury-free. When I was starting, I surfed YouTube a lot for form/gait videos but there is just too much out there that is of variable quality. I think you would benefit from a cohesive method, adapting it to your needs. At the end of the day it has to work for you.

I would suggest finding a coach who has been trained in Chi Running, Pose Running, etc. Specifically try to find someone who has been through the knee issues him- or herself (maybe they all do?).

I did my longest run today at 2 hours (trail) and I'm pretty sure that I will be pain-free and able to do a bike ride and evening run tomorrow. If I can run with my gimpy knees, misaligned hip and LLD, anybody can.

"The song of a bird…We used to ask Ennesson to do bird calls. He could do them. How he could do them, and when he perished, along with him went all those birds…"-Return from the Stars, Stanislaw Lem

"We just walk around, and sometimes we go out and dance, and then we listen to the environment."-Ralf Hutter, Kraftwerk

May 16, 2014, 8:26 a.m.
Posts: 26382
Joined: Aug. 14, 2005

I would suggest finding a coach who has been trained in Chi Running, Pose Running, etc. Specifically try to find someone who has been through the knee issues him- or herself (maybe they all do?).

Paying for some time with a good coach will have a far greater impact on one's running then any money spent on shoes, insoles, and the like. I see so many runners around who I know would see more improvement in even 2 simple corrections if helped by a coach.

I know it is easy to brush this off because one will say " Well..I can get the info from books and from watching Paula Radcliffe running vids." But the reality as often comes true…we think we are doing a certain part of the technique well yet if we where videoed by a coach we would see other wise. Like skiing when we hear bend your knees and you think your doing it yet you discover from coach feedback you are are not doing it enough.

One nice thing with IPads for a good running coach is they can video you and 20 seconds later show you what you may or may have not done. Much better then the days of waiting an hour to do it in the office.

www.thisiswhy.co.uk

www.teamnfi.blogspot.com/

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