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shock rate / spring rate / wheel rate

Jan. 21, 2015, 10:52 a.m.
Posts: 394
Joined: Feb. 25, 2003

shock tune is quite subjective, though some base knowledge could have saved me a few head aches, (AKA I know nothing). Norco provides a card with suggested tune for the Range spec'ed with the DB air. I set up the GF's bike in line with what norco suggested and she hated it. so she took it down the road to a friend who who has a similar riding style to her and experience with the DB on a specialized enduro. the way he set it up was way different then the cheat sheet provided by norco. I am pretty sure he came up with what works for him through trial and error.

I have no experience with the reliability of Cane Creek's information. I was just suggesting that by comparing their base tune values, you might be able to learn a bit about the underlying suspension design by way of extrapolation.

But maybe not.

Jan. 21, 2015, 9:42 p.m.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Nov. 27, 2002

I don't really understand what you're saying here. Are you saying your specific shock has this? What shock are you running?

Are you saying this is what is available to manufacturers?

My point still remains. 99% of the bikes sold have no way to make any of these adjustments with the stock shock. You get what you get. If you're lucky, you have a 3 position compression adjustment.

Monarch Plus. I was wrong there is only 3 volume (aircan) options and then the volume reducer spacers to fine tune the spring rate curve. Yes they are also infinitely tuneable in damping range via the shim stacks. All available after market.

"I do like how you generally bring an open-minded and positive vibe to the threads you participate in"

- Morgman

Jan. 22, 2015, 9:32 a.m.
Posts: 8935
Joined: Dec. 23, 2005

You get what you get.

You don't have to settle for just getting what you get.

http://www.huckingkitty.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=680

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/rockshox-monarch-rt3-shim-stack-792842.html

The information is out there on how to custom tune your own shocks.

Jan. 22, 2015, 4:01 p.m.
Posts: 394
Joined: Feb. 25, 2003

This is all great, but kind of beside the point. The vast majority of bikes come spec'd with a Fox or Rock Shox rear shock. It looks like there is a tiny bit of information floating around out there for the Rock Shox, but no much. For the Fox:

1) There's no readily available manuals, drawings or information on servicing or tuning.
2) There's no information on the base tune.
3) To crack into it, the guy needed to figure out his own way to buy parts, and even design some custom tooling.

So, if the only source of information on tuning/rebuilding a shock is some Internet dude posting on a bulletin board, I'm going to stand by my comment that the majority of rear shocks are un-tunable. Because for the vast, vast majority of riders/mechanics/shocks/bikes, that is the case.

Jan. 22, 2015, 4:14 p.m.
Posts: 8935
Joined: Dec. 23, 2005

Because for the vast, vast majority of riders/mechanics/shocks/bikes, that is the case.

http://suspensionwerx.com/

http://www.vorsprungsuspension.com/

http://www.fluid-function.com/

Peter in Squamish that does Fox…drawing a blank on his company name.

http://www.pushindustries.com/

Or buy a Cane Creek and fiddle with knobs till your hearts content. (Not specific to you and needing to fiddle just the generic "you")

Jan. 22, 2015, 6:02 p.m.
Posts: 394
Joined: Feb. 25, 2003

I didn't think this was a discussion about companies that are able to tune shocks.

This started out as a discussion about the lack of information on suspension designs and shock tunes. I'm not sure that a handful of companies that will tune your shock for a bunch of money runs counter to that argument.

Jan. 22, 2015, 6:42 p.m.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Nov. 27, 2002

If you search for that stuff it's out there.

I changed the shim stack twice in the Vivid on my Demo. Air shocks are just as easy and changing an air can or adding/removing volume spacers is hardly difficult is it? If it is then I suspect those people wouldn't be asking the question in the first place.

Sticking with my shock.

Service manual

https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign.netdna-ssl.com/cdn/farfuture/rWDaZdB8iLcuiKUqVrmctKEeuDjKMFwq3GlDS7RVYG4/mtime:1372788166/sites/default/files/techdocs/2012_monarch_plus_service_manual_gen_0000000004158_rev_a.pdf

Technical diagrams

http://www.qbp.com/diagrams/TechInfo/vivid.pdf

Spare parts manual containing all compression/rebound tune part listings and exploded diagrams.

https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign.netdna-ssl.com/sites/default/files/techdocs/2014_rockshox_spc_rev_a_0.pdf

"I do like how you generally bring an open-minded and positive vibe to the threads you participate in"

- Morgman

Jan. 22, 2015, 8:41 p.m.
Posts: 394
Joined: Feb. 25, 2003

Shirk and JCL - You guys realize that you're basically bicycle service 1 percenters, right? I feel like I'm pointing out to Donald Trump that some people struggle with paying their rent.

Anyhow - JCL - That Rock Shox service manual is pretty great. That surprises me. But still. Even with that in hand. And tracking down the 110 page Rock Shox part list. And scouring the internet to figure out your base tune. And what parts you need. And hoping you guess correctly. I wouldn't define this as "easy" or "simple". But you got me. My statement that there is "no way" to change this was incorrect.

Jan. 22, 2015, 9:18 p.m.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Nov. 27, 2002

Okay then so do you agree that manufacturers should include a leverage rate (ratio change) graph alongside geometry :)

"I do like how you generally bring an open-minded and positive vibe to the threads you participate in"

- Morgman

Jan. 23, 2015, 9:24 a.m.
Posts: 8935
Joined: Dec. 23, 2005

I feel that only the 1% really care to fiddle with it themselves and properly understand it, for them the information is out there.

The other 99% can be split into two camps. Camp 1 is the don't care and it likely doesn't matter to their riding. They get the sag kinda close, rebound in the middle and go. Camp 2 is going to pay someone else to take care of it and set it up for them.

Would it be good for manufactures to provide more? Sure that would be great, but is anyone other than the 1% of home tuners or high end shop mechanics really going to utilize it?

There has been a lot of smoke and mirrors marketing mumbo jumbo behind suspension. At the end of the day if your main pivot is with-in reasonable zone around the chainring and your shock doesn't suck the bike will ride pretty damn good.

Jan. 23, 2015, 9:45 a.m.
Posts: 242
Joined: Dec. 19, 2010

I think the RM9 had the worse leverage ratio of all time. 2" stoke for 9" of travel.

That was a bizarre beast. (Says the guy whom had two RM6's and an RM7).

…still looks like a Trek:rolleyes:

Jan. 23, 2015, 10:11 a.m.
Posts: 3483
Joined: Nov. 27, 2002

Would it be good for manufactures to provide more? Sure that would be great, but is anyone other than the 1% of home tuners or high end shop mechanics really going to utilize it?

There has been a lot of smoke and mirrors marketing mumbo jumbo behind suspension. At the end of the day if your main pivot is with-in reasonable zone around the chainring and your shock doesn't suck the bike will ride pretty damn good.

That is exactly why I'd like the leverage rate graph to become commonplace. So everyone can see the facts behind the marketing.

We can all look at bike and work out the instant centre and the resulting level of anti-squat etc but leverage rate is almost impossible to guess. It would provide some interesting discussions I think.

"I do like how you generally bring an open-minded and positive vibe to the threads you participate in"

- Morgman

Jan. 23, 2015, 10:42 a.m.
Posts: 5738
Joined: May 28, 2005

Would it be good for manufactures to provide more? Sure that would be great, but is anyone other than the 1% of home tuners or high end shop mechanics really going to utilize it?

i think transparency and clarity from manufacturers would help the 1% increase in size. it could make bicycle suspension more accessible for consumers, and provide a strong basis for analysis, comparison, etc. and even if it wasn't that helpful, simply replacing the "smoke and mirrors marketing mumbo jumbo" would make it a welcome change - the 99% could be helped to appreciate they don't know what's going on, rather than being encouraged to spew nonsense

"Nobody really gives a shit that you don't like the thing that you have no firsthand experience with." Dave

Jan. 24, 2015, 11:29 a.m.
Posts: 1885
Joined: Oct. 16, 2005

I have no experience with the reliability of Cane Creek's information. I was just suggesting that by comparing their base tune values, you might be able to learn a bit about the underlying suspension design by way of extrapolation.

But maybe not.

The one place that you have to be careful with Cane Creek's base tunes is that for some bikes where, between their test riders - manufacturers - and forums, they haven't finalized a ~ tune the "Base Tune" will often just show a neutral tune (something like LSC +13, LSR +15, HSC +2 Turns, HSR +2 Turns).

That said, if you know the ~ rates and characteristics of a bike's suspension it is pretty easy to borrow an established base tune from a similar bike as a starting point.

Without stating a personal bias/preference or making any claims about performance relative to other shocks, I will say that of the brands we carry at work (SuspensionWerx: Fox, Cane Creek, BOS) a very common reason that Cane Creek's shocks are chosen as replacements/upgrades the vast majority of the time is that they are 100% user tune-able (LSC/HSC/LSR/HSR external + Air Volume internal).

We do a significant number of re-tunes a year custom valving aftermarket//used shocks to work with specific bikes OR stock shocks to work for specific riders and generally this does require specific tools (as well as nitrogen charging capabilities in many cases), access to parts, specialized knowledge (the 1% as mentioned above), and experience with a vast array of suspension designs. If you get the tune wrong you have to crack the shock again and then bleed it//charge it all over again.

With Cane Creek's shocks you start from a Base Tune and dial the shock to your preference from there. Locally, compared to the base tunes, most riders prefer to run ~LSC +2 clicks, ~LSR +2 clicks, and less sag. If, in tuning your shock, you end up with performance that is totally wonky you just go back to base settings.

I wouldn't attempt to speak for mountain bicyclers in general; however, I would say in my specific experience that WAY more than 1% of riders (that I see) are interested in being able to tune their own suspension… easily more than 50%… just not to the extent of tearing down dampers to re-valve the shim stacks (that would be way less than 1%).

I would be very surprised if more suspension products going forward don't offer a higher degree of external adjustment as I think it is something the market wants (along with base settings specific to your bike so you have a starting point).

I would suggest that one of the reasons Cane Creek's shocks hold their value on the used market compared to other dampers is that they work with any bike with their dimensions (E.G. 8.5x2.5 = 8.5x2.5) without requiring a re-tune.

Mean People SUCK! Nice People SHOVEL!

Trails For All; Trails For Weather

Jan. 24, 2015, 12:16 p.m.
Posts: 2113
Joined: Nov. 6, 2005

The one place that you have to be careful with Cane Creek's base tunes is that for some bikes where, between their test riders - manufacturers - and forums, they haven't finalized a ~ tune the "Base Tune" will often just show a neutral tune (something like LSC +13, LSR +15, HSC +2 Turns, HSR +2 Turns).

That said, if you know the ~ rates and characteristics of a bike's suspension it is pretty easy to borrow an established base tune from a similar bike as a starting point.

Without stating a personal bias/preference or making any claims about performance relative to other shocks, I will say that of the brands we carry at work (SuspensionWerx: Fox, Cane Creek, BOS) a very common reason that Cane Creek's shocks are chosen as replacements/upgrades the vast majority of the time is that they are 100% user tune-able (LSC/HSC/LSR/HSR external + Air Volume internal).

We do a significant number of re-tunes a year custom valving aftermarket//used shocks to work with specific bikes OR stock shocks to work for specific riders and generally this does require specific tools (as well as nitrogen charging capabilities in many cases), access to parts, specialized knowledge (the 1% as mentioned above), and experience with a vast array of suspension designs. If you get the tune wrong you have to crack the shock again and then bleed it//charge it all over again.

With Cane Creek's shocks you start from a Base Tune and dial the shock to your preference from there. Locally, compared to the base tunes, most riders prefer to run ~LSC +2 clicks, ~LSR +2 clicks, and less sag. If, in tuning your shock, you end up with performance that is totally wonky you just go back to base settings.

I wouldn't attempt to speak for mountain bicyclers in general; however, I would say in my specific experience that WAY more than 1% of riders (that I see) are interested in being able to tune their own suspension… easily more than 50%… just not to the extent of tearing down dampers to re-valve the shim stacks (that would be way less than 1%).

I would be very surprised if more suspension products going forward don't offer a higher degree of external adjustment as I think it is something the market wants (along with base settings specific to your bike so you have a starting point).

I would suggest that one of the reasons Cane Creek's shocks hold their value on the used market compared to other dampers is that they work with any bike with their dimensions (E.G. 8.5x2.5 = 8.5x2.5) without requiring a re-tune.

Its amazing what CC has done with the Double Barrel platform… given that most anything ever engineered to be a "jack-of-all-trades" usually has substantial compromises somewhere in its DNA…

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