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Paying For Crap

Aug. 28, 2003, 9:26 p.m.
Posts: 61
Joined: June 30, 2003

a long time ago I stopped hating stores for charging markups. I realized that is how they make the money that keeps the lights on and feeds their families. If the markup was so large, there would be a store coming along that charged less and provided the same service to take the market. The reason you don't see that is the markup is not extreme. Bikes are a relatively high risk, low volume product, and so markups will be higher. If a bike (or component) doesn't sell in the current model year, the store will likely not make anything on it, having to mark it down. As for manufacturers, they are all competing for your money, and yes there are some brands out there that charge less, so why aren't you buying those? They charge less since they spend less on R[HTML_REMOVED]D and don't have the latest features that you want, right?

Thinking about it, why does a pair of Roach pants (name brand, stylee product, low volume production) only cost $149 when they are made of heavy durable fabric and a pair of designer jeans made of denim (high volume production of common product) sell for $80?

Aug. 28, 2003, 9:31 p.m.
Posts: 110
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

You've also got to think about how you use your equipment. People on this board aren't the average cyclist. It's kind of like a rally car racer or serious off road enthusiast asking why the auto world has such a high percentage of crappy product. Most auto products aren't built to accomodate their uses.

Aug. 28, 2003, 9:34 p.m.
Posts: 33445
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

Originally posted by J dot
norco VPS costs 14 bucks to produce after paint and decals (w/o shock)

No - it's more like a couple hundred dollars for the front triangle.

It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities.
- Josiah Stamp

Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.
- H.G. Wells

Aug. 28, 2003, 9:48 p.m.
Posts: 17
Joined: April 16, 2003

I thought bout this back a couple months ago and i saw a post on pinkbike and draco a frame making comapyny explain the cost out and they didnt make that much of a profit. i am not saying all companies run like this but i like the post before "Why does a dog lick it's balls? Because it CAN." We are sucker who are willing to pay. what we buy other get profits its a bussiness that runs steep.

Aug. 28, 2003, 10 p.m.
Posts: 12391
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

Originally posted by Dom@nsmb.com
Because it has very little brain power and nothing better to do. So, unless you have something constructive to add stay out of this topic please.

well its true, companies can make things extremeley expensive for that exact reason…THEY CAN. A monster T arch is like $150 and costs them like 10 bucks to make maybe less (this numer is correct by the way, it doesnt cost much at all to pour some aluminum into a mold and polish it). But if someone breaks their monster arch, as long as its cheaper than buying a new fork they will buy the arch.

In the car world, there are tons of companies making the same product by the thousands and there are less middle men if at all any. (materials to honda to dealer to customer.) whereas in the MTB world, there arent many companies and they dont make the product in large numbers. Also there are tons of middle men (Aluminum refinery to aluminum company to Shimano to distrbutor to shop to customer to taxes).

just a thought,

Nelson

www.mouellic.com

Aug. 28, 2003, 10:11 p.m.
Posts: 33445
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

I don't mind things being expensive when they have to be, but $40 for a Hayes 8" mounting adapter? :S

It is easy to dodge our responsibilities, but we cannot dodge the consequences of dodging our responsibilities.
- Josiah Stamp

Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race.
- H.G. Wells

Aug. 28, 2003, 10:38 p.m.
Posts: 2101
Joined: Dec. 4, 2002

ouch i paid 20 for mine

Aug. 28, 2003, 10:54 p.m.
Posts: 1250
Joined: Dec. 30, 2002

^ yea exactly, i asked how much and 8in rotor and adaptor would cost and they said like $86 with a 10% discount since im special. so i told them to forget it cuz i could spend like $40.

i dont think this helped but im just sharing my experiance

POISON THE WELL
http://www.poisonthewell.com/
lookin to trade a 750lb 2.2 stroke spring for a 600 or 650lb 2.2 or 2.3 stroke sping, pm me

Aug. 28, 2003, 11:19 p.m.
Posts: 6449
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

markup is a pain.alot of times shops even charge more than the MSRP,and that in itself should be a crime.
My main gripe with the industry is that there are not enough companies making replacement parts for things like hayes and marzocchi products.what i mean is: sure,it's nice to be able to support a local machinist like dangerboy cnc.but i mean,it's still not an economical replacement part.
everything is overpriced in the biking industry.take for example brake pads for a MX bike.MX pads are cheaper,twice as big and last longer than you're stock hayes pads.

BTW:
taiwanese welder's are just as experienced and certified as any canadian welders.in some instances even more so because they are welding such large amounts of frames.and we all know that practice makes perfect.
they are paid on par with what you would make in canada.
that is from several sources,not just some stupid fact i made up in my head.

Aug. 29, 2003, 3:39 a.m.
Posts: 45
Joined: Nov. 19, 2002

The thing that I fail to understand is why so few people "get" that the actual building of a part and the material involved is such a SMALL percentage of the true cost of that part. Everyone's always like "well that little chunk of metal is only worth a few bucks, why should I pay $30 for it?"

The reason is design, testing, overhead, shipping, packaging and then bike shop costs. There is alot more that goes into a part than the cost of the material alone. It also has everything to do with volume. Not that many of us buy high-end bike equipment. Fewer products=higher prices. Either learn to deal or go get into something cheap.

You know, like golf. Where a simple stick of metal costs $800.

:rolleyes:

Aug. 29, 2003, 7:10 a.m.
Posts: 1779
Joined: Nov. 15, 2002

Originally posted by davet
**Where can I buy a CNC machine that and hire an engineer to build me a Monster T arch for under your all inclusive $10? If all it takes is pouring some aluminum into a mold, why don't you start making them in your backyard. Actually tell how to ship something here from Italy for $10.00.

You just don't get it do you. Read the posts on this thread and think about it. Every product they sell has to pay for the research and development. Lower demand products (like replacement arches and crowns) carry a higher amount of overhead. **

Davet,
You hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
no way blaine…you can buy a brand new DJIII for $219

Leroy,
Your post just goes to prove what I said earlier, too many peeps assume too much based on hear say or mostly hot air. ;)

Aug. 29, 2003, 8:34 a.m.
Posts: 12391
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

Originally posted by Dom@nsmb.com
**Davet,
You hit the nail on the head.

Leroy,
Your post just goes to prove what I said earlier, too many peeps assume too much based on hear say or mostly hot air. ;) **

Strange dom, but last time I went to work, we were selling DJIIIs for $219 canadian. Hell dom, if you want a JR-T PRO you can get it for $650.

As for the monster T arches, they arent CNC And there isnt Much R and D at all. Reason being there isnt R[HTML_REMOVED]D is beacuse Anything you make out of half inch aluminum thats relitavley short will be super strong no matter what shape it is…thats why the arch looks like an M. If anything, having a huge arch with a bend at the top is weaker and serves only a cosmetic value.

And to the people saying you cant CNC for $10,

1. I didnt say it was CNCd, its FORGED…as in put in a mold.

2. There isnt a guy that sits there and pours the metal, its all done by computer all the guy does its emtpy the molds and close the mold then pushes a butoon then walks away for 10 minutes.
how do I know this you might ask? Its my dads Job…..

3. I think that ive justified the arch thing, but what about QR20 Tabs? I belive its $60 for a set of 2, My dad can Machine a pair for under $5 in materials, and it takes him an hour…by hand…
so whats it costing marzocchi to do it with a CNC?

www.mouellic.com

Aug. 29, 2003, 8:38 a.m.
Posts: 12391
Joined: Nov. 22, 2002

Originally posted by davet
Where can I buy a CNC machine that and hire an engineer to build me a Monster T arch for under your all inclusive $10? If all it takes is pouring some aluminum into a mold, why don't you start making them in your backyard.

Note: I said it costs them, of course they have to mark it up to make a profit, and then pay shipping, but i dont think markup and shipping is like $140….

If you want I Can Machine you a monster T arch CNC for $30….if you want it polished at another $10….I dont have robots that do it for me. :P

www.mouellic.com

Aug. 29, 2003, 8:52 a.m.
Posts: 1779
Joined: Nov. 15, 2002

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
1. I didnt say it was CNCd, its FORGED…as in put in a mold.

Your still not taking into account all other cost related to production.

2. There isnt a guy that sits there and pours the metal, its all done by computer all the guy does its emtpy the molds and close the mold then pushes a butoon then walks away for 10 minutes.
how do I know this you might ask? Its my dads Job…..

Yeah, and computer can be had in a cereal boxe for free.

3. I think that ive justified the arch thing, but what about QR20 Tabs? I belive its $60 for a set of 2, My dad can Machine a pair for under $5 in materials, and it takes him an hour…by hand…
so whats it costing marzocchi to do it with a CNC?

No, you did not even came close to justifying anything.

If I follow your logic, your Dad can, design, produce, store, pack, ship, pay duty and GST from Italy all the way to Canada for 10.00$.

As for Marzocchi production, this is not your bizz at all.

Can't you see why your claim make no sense at all?

Originally posted by Leroy McRodney
**Note: I said it costs them, of course they have to mark it up to make a profit, and then pay shipping, but i dont think markup and shipping is like $140….

If you want I Can Machine you a monster T arch CNC for $30….if you want it polished at another $10….I dont have robots that do it for me. :P **

OH yeah, here is a challenge for you Leroy. If you can design, produce, store, pack, ship, pay duty and GST all of this for 10.00$ do it and open a components company - since it cost nothing like everything else in the bike bizz- and you will become the biggest company in the world because no one will be able to rival your prices.

Of course, cost reduction being such a new and innovative concept no one knows anything about it probably because as an industry we are all a bunch of uneducated incompetent (sarcasm through the roof).

GET YOUR FRIGGIN FACTS STRAIGHT AND STOP ASSUMING.

Aug. 29, 2003, 9:06 a.m.
Posts: 1779
Joined: Nov. 15, 2002

Leroy,

Here is a more reasonnable challenge for you. Can you explain or list every single step of a production run from design all the way to the shops?

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