NSMB 2023 Full-Suspension Thread

Posted by: Kenny

Posted by: inshane

Interesting. I’m the same height. I find my 475 reach nomad 5 to be on the big side. Might be because i’m used to sitting straight up when pedaling or maybe I have shorter torso/ arms.

If you have a shorter torso and longer legs, the relatively slack actual seat tube angle of the nomad is probably working against you. 

L Nomad shows an effective top tube of 609mm, which is reasonable, but it probably grows quickly due to the slack actual sta (about 69 degrees)

My xl crossworx has an effective top tube of 619mm, only 10mm longer, despite having 35mm more reach and 26mm more stack. But, it has an *actual* 79 degree STA, so the seated distance to the bars doesn't grow like the nomad. Since I use a 35mm stem on the crossworx and would want at least a 50mm on the nomad, seated fit is actually smaller on that "big" bike than the nomad would be for me. 

Side note: I was anti steep STA for a long time. Problem is I was trying it with frames that were similar reach and stack to what I was riding previously and I just felt like a folded up pretzel perched precariously over the bars. When I literally sized up  +35mm on reach/stack, all of the sudden it was comfortable.

The reach/stack along with steep STA was definitely the game changer for me (albeit one I only recently came about). At the beginning of last year was riding a Large Salsa Timberjack (475r, 74.5sta) and a XL Giant Trance (480r, 74.5sta) and made the mistake of going with a Large Ripley AF which was just barely rideable for me (6'1", 0 ape index, 34" inseam). This year, the 77sta/492mm reach on the XL YT Izzo is generally a lot better climbing and descending without compromising agility. The same sta/6mm longer reach on the Stevo is also good, but I'm still slowly readjusting to the 48mm longer wheelbase than anything else I've been on.

Side note: anyone have a resource for/a cliff note's explanation of actual vs. effective sta? It's one of those concepts I have yet to wrap my head around.

Posted by: fartymarty

I'd rather have a bike that's too long vs too short.

I sized down on my new bike (Knolly Fugitive 138). It fits me very well and I like it alot. I can tell that the wheelbase is slightly shorter, but I love the way it handles berms and tight corners. The most noticeable difference is the higher stack, which puts me in a more comfortable riding position.

Posted by: skooks

Posted by: fartymarty

I'd rather have a bike that's too long vs too short.

I sized down on my new bike (Knolly Fugitive 138). It fits me very well and I like it alot. I can tell that the wheelbase is slightly shorter, but I love the way it handles berms and tight corners. The most noticeable difference is the higher stack, which puts me in a more comfortable riding position.

Shorter reach & wheelbase, taller stack. Has the span/RAD changed?

Posted by: craw

NBD has come.

rad bike! i still have a soft spot for the OG druid (perhaps aesthetically more than anything). that they're currently selling at very good prices is taunting me. 

would have been interesting to check out the nucleon, but man, that thing is a tank (and certainly has it's fair share of quirks).

Posted by: xy9ine

Posted by: craw

NBD has come.

rad bike! i still have a soft spot for the OG druid (perhaps aesthetically more than anything). that they're currently selling at very good prices is taunting me. 

would have been interesting to check out the nucleon, but man, that thing is a tank (and certainly has it's fair share of quirks).

The Nucleon is a huge commitment to a new design, the cost/exchange/shipping/duties, a 157mm rear wheel to accommodate the Lal drivetrain. It's an incredible accomplishment but now that I'm happy on the Dread (that checks so many of the boxes for me) which runs mostly conventional gear from a local brand at a fraction of the price I think I'm likely to just stay put. Yes I know Lal is local.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: skooks

Posted by: fartymarty

I'd rather have a bike that's too long vs too short.

I sized down on my new bike (Knolly Fugitive 138). It fits me very well and I like it alot. I can tell that the wheelbase is slightly shorter, but I love the way it handles berms and tight corners. The most noticeable difference is the higher stack, which puts me in a more comfortable riding position.

Shorter reach & wheelbase, taller stack. Has the span/RAD changed?

No, it is almost identical. I like the slightly shorter and taller geo better though.

Posted by: xy9ine

Posted by: craw

NBD has come.

rad bike! i still have a soft spot for the OG druid (perhaps aesthetically more than anything). that they're currently selling at very good prices is taunting me.

would have been interesting to check out the nucleon, but man, that thing is a tank (and certainly has it's fair share of quirks).

I also like the look of the old Forbiddens better. My LBS sell them and they're stunning in person - especially the purple / blue Dread.  Looks count for me - it gotta look good otherwise what's the point...

Posted by: craw

The Nucleon is a huge commitment to a new design, the cost/exchange/shipping/duties, a 157mm rear wheel to accommodate the Lal drivetrain. It's an incredible accomplishment but now that I'm happy on the Dread (that checks so many of the boxes for me) which runs mostly conventional gear from a local brand at a fraction of the price I think I'm likely to just stay put. Yes I know Lal is local.

While LAL is good and all it's still got a ton of weight hanging off the rear wheel.  I wouldn't be jumping in no matter how good it is.  A mech in a can (like Trinity are doing) - now that's a different story and I would be into that (altho it aint a looker yet tho and certainly not cheap).

Agreed on the nucleon, I love that they made it and I think it's awesome on so many levels, but I wouldn't own one. 

What I'm interested to see is if they make another model with the Nucleon geo and suspension layout but more traditional drivetrain. Basically I'm curious if it's just something different, or of this design is the next evolution after the G1. 

I know with geometron they tested that shorter travel bike with Nicolai (a Saturn variant of some sort I think) and basically concluded there was no point in deviating from the G1, it's just such a good platform. 

Will be interesting to see if the nucleon is just a side project or if this design will be a successor.

Posted by: Kenny

Agreed on the nucleon, I love that they made it and I think it's awesome on so many levels, but I wouldn't own one.

What I'm interested to see is if they make another model with the Nucleon geo and suspension layout but more traditional drivetrain. Basically I'm curious if it's just something different, or of this design is the next evolution after the G1.

I know with geometron they tested that shorter travel bike with Nicolai (a Saturn variant of some sort I think) and basically concluded there was no point in deviating from the G1, it's just such a good platform.

Will be interesting to see if the nucleon is just a side project or if this design will be a successor.

They do offer a UDH version of the Nucleon, which is what I originally ordered thinking it would be a tidy way to try the Nucleon without committing to Lal yet. Both versions would share the same T47 BB and both swingarms are 157 so in theory you could swap to a Lal swingarm later. Then they told me that the UDH version would require a lower tensioner (like Forbidden) to ensure sufficient chain wrap and that was a dealbreaker for me which is ironic since I ended up on the Forbidden anyway. Nicolai was quite specific that on the UDH bike a minimal guide like the Cascade Lower Guide would not be sufficient; the bike needs an actual wrapping guide like the E13 LG1 plus. The Nucleon rear center grows way less than the Forbidden so it all might be a moot point. But in any case they bumped my Nucleon delivery date to August and I needed a bike right away.

The Saturn 16 is due for a revamp. I asked if they were thinking of applying the Nucleon concept to that and they got real cagey so who knows.

The cascade guide made a huge difference on my Druid, it felt more efficient and was much less noisy in mud. The guide itself was super noisy until I put some rubber tape on the trailing edge where the chain exits, then it was silent.

Thanks craw, great info!

Will be interesting to see if they applied it to a new Saturn. 

I didn't catch it was available UDH, but I was also forgetting about the wild pivot location. 

Now that you mention it I feel like they've been quoted making similar statements to Kavenz, that essentially you can have almost no compromises both uphill and downhill, with the right idler/high pivot setup (other than the compromise of the idler itself). 

I'm not sure I'm ready to drink that Kool aid. Maybe in a couple years. 

The crossworx and nucleon definitely look like cousins. 

The pivot on the crossworx is similar to something like a raaw, high for a "normal" bike but not high as high pivots go.

Posted by: Kenny

Thanks craw, great info!

Will be interesting to see if they applied it to a new Saturn. 

I didn't catch it was available UDH, but I was also forgetting about the wild pivot location. 

Now that you mention it I feel like they've been quoted making similar statements to Kavenz, that essentially you can have almost no compromises both uphill and downhill, with the right idler/high pivot setup (other than the compromise of the idler itself). 

I'm not sure I'm ready to drink that Kool aid. Maybe in a couple years. 

The crossworx and nucleon definitely look like cousins. 

The pivot on the crossworx is similar to something like a raaw, high for a "normal" bike but not high as high pivots go.

The Crossworx is alot like an Evil. 

Seeing that the new Druid is basically an inverted 4-bar it will be interesting to see where it all lands - will they apply that design to the Dread? I definitely believe that the rearward action is worth having but I'm not certain all these extra pulleys is the best way to do it. The new Druid gets enough chain wrap that it can forego the lower tensioner altogether. Forbidden told me that the XL Dread can get away with less tensioner because the main pivot is further back from the BB than the other sizes (that's how they achieve the different rear center lengths) so I'm definitely going to experiment with that. I'll start by rolling the tensioner counter clockwise to reduce drag.

Posted by: craw

Posted by: Kenny

Thanks craw, great info!

Will be interesting to see if they applied it to a new Saturn.

I didn't catch it was available UDH, but I was also forgetting about the wild pivot location.

Now that you mention it I feel like they've been quoted making similar statements to Kavenz, that essentially you can have almost no compromises both uphill and downhill, with the right idler/high pivot setup (other than the compromise of the idler itself).

I'm not sure I'm ready to drink that Kool aid. Maybe in a couple years.

The crossworx and nucleon definitely look like cousins.

The pivot on the crossworx is similar to something like a raaw, high for a "normal" bike but not high as high pivots go.

The Crossworx is alot like an Evil.

Seeing that the new Druid is basically an inverted 4-bar it will be interesting to see where it all lands - will they apply that design to the Dread? I definitely believe that the rearward action is worth having but I'm not certain all these extra pulleys is the best way to do it. The new Druid gets enough chain wrap that it can forego the lower tensioner altogether. Forbidden told me that the XL Dread can get away with less tensioner because the main pivot is further back from the BB than the other sizes (that's how they achieve the different rear center lengths) so I'm definitely going to experiment with that. I'll start by rolling the tensioner counter clockwise to reduce drag.

My wife has run her Druid with no tensioner since pretty much day one. I am currently building up a V1 Druid of my own, and will not be running a tensioner either. Im not sure about Dreadnought owners, but many V1 Druid owners run no tensioner with no ill effects.