NSMB 2023 Full-Suspension Thread

I had the same curiousity. 

I'd also be curious to know if you've thought about putting a backwards angle set in. I know a guy with a g16 who feels this was a great mod. 

I have an XL crossworx @510mm reach/447chainstay, but a moderate 65 head tube angle, 1305mm wheelbase with the current 51mm offset fork. 

I'm only 5'11" so 510 reach is plenty roomy for me. I expected I'd want to slacken the bike out but the front center length I get from the reach number seems to result in my not feeling like I need to go super slack. 

I notice geometrons newest frame (nucleon) is "only" 64 degrees, so I get the sense even geometron may have found some limits. My crossworx seems to have similar dna coming from 2 ex Nicolai employees, so I almost suspect they also knew this was the direction things were heading. Keep the reach but reign in the head angle a little. 

I do feel like 1300-1320 is right at the limit of where life starts to get awkward on a more regular basis, also depending on how well the pilot can man-handle their machine.

Posted by: snowsnake

craw, was your G1 the “extra longest” with the 1347mm wheelbase? What size Forbidden did you get? I’m currently trying to wrap my head around how long my S5 stumpy evo is - it’s incredibly confidence inspiring as long as I’m going fast, but it just won’t make it around some corners without laying it scarily far over.

Also, not sure pictures of MY stevo is what was asked for, but here it is (if I managed to make image upload work this time)

Posted by: Kenny

I had the same curiousity. 

I'd also be curious to know if you've thought about putting a backwards angle set in. I know a guy with a g16 who feels this was a great mod. 

I have an XL crossworx @510mm reach/447chainstay, but a moderate 65 head tube angle, 1305mm wheelbase with the current 51mm offset fork. 

I'm only 5'11" so 510 reach is plenty roomy for me. I expected I'd want to slacken the bike out but the front center length I get from the reach number seems to result in my not feeling like I need to go super slack. 

I notice geometrons newest frame (nucleon) is "only" 64 degrees, so I get the sense even geometron may have found some limits. My crossworx seems to have similar dna coming from 2 ex Nicolai employees, so I almost suspect they also knew this was the direction things were heading. Keep the reach but reign in the head angle a little. 

I do feel like 1300-1320 is right at the limit of where life starts to get awkward on a more regular basis, also depending on how well the pilot can man-handle their machine.

My XL Murmur (515r, 445cs, 1295ish WB) sounds similar dimensions to your Crossworx and I'm 6'1". I've just dropped the fork to 150mm which works well with the 140 rear.  It's a long bike but not too long I can't ride everything on it.  There's definitely some Geometron DNA in the geo (as with a lot of UK bikes) but not overly so and works well with the local (SE UK) conditions.

I do love Geometrons but it would be too much bike for the majority of my local riding.

As you note I think we have finally reached a place where geo has been maxed out.

Posted by: fartymarty

As you note I think we have finally reached a place where (some aspects of) geo has been maxed out.

Rear centres and head tubes are early days yet I feel.

Posted by: snowsnake

craw, was your G1 the “extra longest” with the 1347mm wheelbase? What size Forbidden did you get? I’m currently trying to wrap my head around how long my S5 stumpy evo is - it’s incredibly confidence inspiring as long as I’m going fast, but it just won’t make it around some corners without laying it scarily far over.

Also, not sure pictures of MY stevo is what was asked for, but here it is (if I managed to make image upload work this time)

Yes it was. I was sure it was actually a little longer than that but I might be misremembering. The XL Dread should sit pretty close to 1347 at sag but it doesn't feel like a 2x4 going down a waterslide.

I started having the idea that maybe the G1 was as big as I want to go and that put a pause on my Nucleon plans. This was the last XT build Dreadnought, complete it cost a little more than what the Nucleon frame will cost (factoring for exchange rate, buying all the Lal parts and nearly $900CAD in shipping and whatever duties). Felt like the perfect time to go with the locals. So far so good. I could use a little more stack (real) and I have concerns about idler durability/alignment/drag (imagined) but so far it's all totally fine.

I had some really firm ideas about fit and my ideal numbers and I came to question them all and I'm glad I did. I think the Geometrons were a reasonable reaction to the lazily proportioned bikes of the time (do you hear me Evil? yeah you). The Nicolai were proudly proportional and oversized and it felt good that at least one company cared. But they were monstrous and unruly especially the G16. Ironically the Dread has a 120mm head tube and 506mm of reach and that's working for me (though the 665 ETT is actually longer than the G1's). The Forbidden are cleverly proportional too and that was a big factor.

Why would I run a reverse angle set? To make the head angle steeper? The Dread doesn't ride like it has a slack head angle. The Nicolai definitely rode that way but I haven't yet felt that Dread head angle to be overly slack. It seems a very well conceived package. There's a ton of stuff going on in the bike; it's going to take a while to untangle it all.

I was someone who put a reverse angleset in a G16 in like 2019 :)

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: fartymarty

As you note I think we have finally reached a place where (some aspects of) geo has been maxed out.

Rear centres and head tubes are early days yet I feel.

I'm so curious to see where we go. I've gone up and down a few times with both and have varying results. It can be tricky to assign ride feel to a particular dimension when two bikes with that same dimension can ride so differently. So you try to figure out what about a particular bike as a system causes that. Where's AMajor I need help?

Posted by: [email protected]

Posted by: snowsnake

craw, was your G1 the “extra longest” with the 1347mm wheelbase? What size Forbidden did you get? I’m currently trying to wrap my head around how long my S5 stumpy evo is - it’s incredibly confidence inspiring as long as I’m going fast, but it just won’t make it around some corners without laying it scarily far over.

Also, not sure pictures of MY stevo is what was asked for, but here it is (if I managed to make image upload work this time)

Much appreciated Niels!

I’m actually considering trying out the high/steep setting to see if it wrangles the wheelbase somewhat on the Evo, but it honestly feels more comfortable the more I ride it. I think it is just the thing to get me cornering a little more decisively and not pre-braking so much, since it definitely provides feedback when not riding aggressively.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: fartymarty

As you note I think we have finally reached a place where (some aspects of) geo has been maxed out.

Rear centres and head tubes are early days yet I feel.

You can work around short HTs with a taller bar and a few spacers.  Rear centres are getting there - very brand dependent tho - I'm reasonably happy with 445/444 on my FS and HT.  Wouldn't want much longer on each.

Posted by: craw

Posted by: snowsnake

craw, was your G1 the “extra longest” with the 1347mm wheelbase? What size Forbidden did you get? I’m currently trying to wrap my head around how long my S5 stumpy evo is - it’s incredibly confidence inspiring as long as I’m going fast, but it just won’t make it around some corners without laying it scarily far over.

Also, not sure pictures of MY stevo is what was asked for, but here it is (if I managed to make image upload work this time)

Yes it was. I was sure it was actually a little longer than that but I might be misremembering. The XL Dread should sit pretty close to 1347 at sag but it doesn't feel like a 2x4 going down a waterslide.

I started having the idea that maybe the G1 was as big as I want to go and that put a pause on my Nucleon plans. This was the last XT build Dreadnought, complete it cost a little more than what the Nucleon frame will cost (factoring for exchange rate, buying all the Lal parts and nearly $900CAD in shipping and whatever duties). Felt like the perfect time to go with the locals. So far so good. I could use a little more stack (real) and I have concerns about idler durability/alignment/drag (imagined) but so far it's all totally fine.

I had some really firm ideas about fit and my ideal numbers and I came to question them all and I'm glad I did. I think the Geometrons were a reasonable reaction to the lazily proportioned bikes of the time (do you hear me Evil? yeah you). The Nicolai were proudly proportional and oversized and it felt good that at least one company cared. But they were monstrous and unruly especially the G16. Ironically the Dread has a 120mm head tube and 506mm of reach and that's working for me (though the 665 ETT is actually longer than the G1's). The Forbidden are cleverly proportional too and that was a big factor.

Why would I run a reverse angle set? To make the head angle steeper? The Dread doesn't ride like it has a slack head angle. The Nicolai definitely rode that way but I haven't yet felt that Dread head angle to be overly slack. It seems a very well conceived package. There's a ton of stuff going on in the bike; it's going to take a while to untangle it all.

I was someone who put a reverse angleset in a G16 in like 2019 :)

Yeah I was talking about the Nicolai. The reason to run a reverse Angleset would be to reduce the front center and overall wheelbase, since the initial comments were around how Nicolai style proportional sizing was resulting in wheelbases that get tough to manage.

Yeah it accomplishes that by steepening the head angle, but I guess what I'm saying is, if the bike has a long (aka, appropriate) reach and you are pairing it with a short stem, those things alone are getting the front axle further out in front of your hands, so the need for a super slack head angle is somewhat reduced.

The nucleon (and crossworx, although I am guessing a little on that one) seem to suggest that once the reach is long enough, you end up with a front center that is long enough to be stable and fairly "OTB proof" with a slightly more moderate head angle.

I feel the opposite is also true- if a bike is too small, you'll almost always feel like it could be slacker, because you're trying to get away from that feeling where the front wheel wants to "tuck" underneath you.

That's at least from the perspective of this decidedly average, middle aged north shore rider. :)

Posted by: Kenny

I feel the opposite is also true- if a bike is too small, you'll almost always feel like it could be slacker, because you're trying to get away from that feeling where the front wheel wants to "tuck" underneath you.

I chased this with my Banshee Spitfire v2. Over forked, low/slack dropout setting and a - 2° headset got me a ~64° head angle. Still went OTB due to the length and 26" wheels. 

If I hadn't been so certain it was too short I probably would have bought a new fork and modern mullet wheels. I'd still be interested to ride it like that to see how much safer I'd feel.

It’s very noticeable on hardtails, longer reach means you don’t need stupidly lazy head angles.

I'd rather have a bike that's too long vs too short.

Interesting. I’m the same height. I find my 475 reach nomad 5 to be on the big side. Might be because i’m used to sitting straight up when pedaling or maybe I have shorter torso/ arms.

Posted by: inshane

Interesting. I’m the same height. I find my 475 reach nomad 5 to be on the big side. Might be because i’m used to sitting straight up when pedaling or maybe I have shorter torso/ arms.

My Solaris Max has ~475r but not the steepest STA.  It's about as short as J would go at 6'1".  Butt to bar is similar to my Murmur tho (515r).