NSMB - 2022 - Hardtail Thread...

Read some interesting comments on the RM Element review. Essentially people were saying you shouldn't put aggressive tires/fork/brakes on a 120mm bike because "The (excellent if I do say so myself) geometry is cashing cheques the 120mm travel can't always handle when things get really rough, and there will be instances where the rider forgets that." Of course there are lots of folks on 0mm rear travel bikes with aggressive geo/tires/inserts/brakes and even some on 0mm/0mm travel double hardtails. I can't recall any times in the last few years of dedicated hardtailing when I've just lost my mind and thrown my bike into stuff on black diamond+ trails and had my Bank Manager call to talk to me about bounced Geo Cheques. ;-)

Heck my last few FS bikes have been 130mm-140mm with burly parts/aggressive geo and no Geo Cheque bouncing has occurred either. It seems like one of the fun things about riding any particular bike is learning what it does well/poorly and figuring how to get it down the trails you want to ride with the most smiles.

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

Posted by: Vikb

Read some interesting comments on the RM Element review. Essentially people were saying you shouldn't put aggressive tires/fork/brakes on a 120mm bike because "The (excellent if I do say so myself) geometry is cashing cheques the 120mm travel can't always handle when things get really rough, and there will be instances where the rider forgets that." Of course there are lots of folks on 0mm rear travel bikes with aggressive geo/tires/inserts/brakes and even some on 0mm/0mm travel double hardtails. I can't recall any times in the last few years of dedicated hardtailing when I've just lost my mind and thrown my bike into stuff on black diamond+ trails and had my Bank Manager call to talk to me about bounced Geo Cheques. ;-)

Heck my last few FS bikes have been 130mm-140mm with burly parts/aggressive geo and no Geo Cheque bouncing has occurred either. It seems like one of the fun things about riding any particular bike is learning what it does well/poorly and figuring how to get it down the trails you want to ride with the most smiles.

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

Agree. Not a concern. All my bikes get aggressive tires until one day I think, how much faster could this bike be with lighter tires and then put on some fast rolling thjn walled tires. And then I head into a corner with speed and realize I am cashing cornering checks my tires can't handle 😮 at this point I'm in a full on two wheel drift and I realize how hard my geometry cheque is bouncing. When I get through the corner in one piece. I say I'm never going to corner that hard on such gripless tires again. And then I head into the next corner too fast......my bank manager gave up on me years ago and closed my account. Now I just go trying to cash bad cheques everywhere.

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: Endurimil

Vik, had weird squeek kind of sound in 2021. Did the usual check everything and it was the hinge on the knee brace making the sound.

Ha! I rode with a lady who had a complicated knee brace and it squeaked like crazy! But at least she could ride her mountain bike.

LOL. True about the riding. part.

Also remember your knee brace is the pile of crap made by the cheapest bidder. 🤣🤣🤣

Posted by: Vikb

Read some interesting comments on the RM Element review. Essentially people were saying you shouldn't put aggressive tires/fork/brakes on a 120mm bike because "The (excellent if I do say so myself) geometry is cashing cheques the 120mm travel can't always handle when things get really rough, and there will be instances where the rider forgets that." Of course there are lots of folks on 0mm rear travel bikes with aggressive geo/tires/inserts/brakes and even some on 0mm/0mm travel double hardtails. I can't recall any times in the last few years of dedicated hardtailing when I've just lost my mind and thrown my bike into stuff on black diamond+ trails and had my Bank Manager call to talk to me about bounced Geo Cheques. ;-)

Heck my last few FS bikes have been 130mm-140mm with burly parts/aggressive geo and no Geo Cheque bouncing has occurred either. It seems like one of the fun things about riding any particular bike is learning what it does well/poorly and figuring how to get it down the trails you want to ride with the most smiles.

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

Think less ride more.

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: Endurimil

Vik, came upon this earlier in the year. Actually got myself a bunch from this company but arrived a few days before surgery so haven't actually used it yet.

Nice. Let us know how they stuff you got works out for you. Best of luck with the surgery recovery as well. I hope you are back on the bike soon.

A couple of days before surgery on an easy ride did a dry run with one of the straps that got. Keep in mind was a small soda bottle but held in place no problem. No movement. Keep in mind that it wasn't rough trail but think will be ok. 

Speaking of water supplies. One thing started doing in 2017 has been carrying some kind of little water filter. Figured since was riding in some areas that where on the remote side might be a good idea to have a back up option. And since not the mountains of BC where one can get water out of a mountain creek with no worries. Started with the MSR Trailshot then got one of those Lifestraws donated to me by a friend. Always carry the Lifestraw as consider it basically an item that is better to not need and have then the alternative. Admit that  the idea also came to me from an IG account I follow who does those tthings like the Colorado Trail Race.

Posted by: RAHrider

Posted by: Vikb

Read some interesting comments on the RM Element review. Essentially people were saying you shouldn't put aggressive tires/fork/brakes on a 120mm bike because "The (excellent if I do say so myself) geometry is cashing cheques the 120mm travel can't always handle when things get really rough, and there will be instances where the rider forgets that." Of course there are lots of folks on 0mm rear travel bikes with aggressive geo/tires/inserts/brakes and even some on 0mm/0mm travel double hardtails. I can't recall any times in the last few years of dedicated hardtailing when I've just lost my mind and thrown my bike into stuff on black diamond+ trails and had my Bank Manager call to talk to me about bounced Geo Cheques. ;-)

Heck my last few FS bikes have been 130mm-140mm with burly parts/aggressive geo and no Geo Cheque bouncing has occurred either. It seems like one of the fun things about riding any particular bike is learning what it does well/poorly and figuring how to get it down the trails you want to ride with the most smiles.

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

Agree. Not a concern. All my bikes get aggressive tires until one day I think, how much faster could this bike be with lighter tires and then put on some fast rolling thjn walled tires. And then I head into a corner with speed and realize I am cashing cornering checks my tires can't handle 😮 at this point I'm in a full on two wheel drift and I realize how hard my geometry cheque is bouncing. When I get through the corner in one piece. I say I'm never going to corner that hard on such gripless tires again. And then I head into the next corner too fast......my bank manager gave up on me years ago and closed my account. Now I just go trying to cash bad cheques everywhere.

I have lots of moments of getting at least mildly in over my head. But I have always assumed that to be my problem. And my responsibility to manage.

But the point of not mistaking the capability of one bike for another stands.

Posted by: Vikb

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

I wouldn't classify it as a concern perse. But for me, I approach a ride on an FS vs HT quite differently. 

On the HT, I expect to get worked, know to be a bit more deliberate about choosing my lines, then I'm pleasantly surprised when the bike/geo/componentry bail me out of sketchy situations. 

On a FS bike, I expect to be able to ride the trail at a higher relative speed and comfort level vs a HT and know I can flow more because the bike will take care of some less than ideal line choices. Which is then dependent on which sub class of FS bike you are riding. 

It's like back in the 2000s, we could throw Monster T's on our Le Toy III's but is that really the best tool for the job you want to do.

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: Vikb

.

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

Think less ride more.

It’s real for me with FS bikes. I find it’s high speed where these bikes get too loose (which is a statement in itself) whereas HT generally limits a bit earlier. I have had no problems with my hardtail, but my 130mm bike is built burlyAF and I’ve realised I’d be better with a longer travel bike that pedals well.

Posted by: RAHrider

Agree. Not a concern. All my bikes get aggressive tires until one day I think, how much faster could this bike be with lighter tires and then put on some fast rolling thjn walled tires. And then I head into a corner with speed and realize I am cashing cornering checks my tires can't handle 😮 at this point I'm in a full on two wheel drift and I realize how hard my geometry cheque is bouncing. When I get through the corner in one piece. I say I'm never going to corner that hard on such gripless tires again. And then I head into the next corner too fast......my bank manager gave up on me years ago and closed my account. Now I just go trying to cash bad cheques everywhere.

Aggressive terrain needs aggressive tyre regardless of bike.  

I rode faster tyres earlier this year (2.3 DHR2 and2.3  Minion SS) on my FS bike and whilst I could still ride all my local trails the lack of rear braking takes some getting getting used to.  I'm not sure if I would want to go there on my HT.

Posted by: Vikb

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

People have been saying this since bikes like the Optic first came out. As someone who’s been on this kind of bike for the last couple years (and came from a longer travel bike) it’s not a concern really.  Once I’m familiar with it I’ve never just suddenly forgot how my bike behaves and gotten in over my head, particularly if I happen to have burly tires on there because hey, I have burly tires on which lets me keep things under control!

Posted by: Vikb

Read some interesting comments on the RM Element review. Essentially people were saying you shouldn't put aggressive tires/fork/brakes on a 120mm bike because "The (excellent if I do say so myself) geometry is cashing cheques the 120mm travel can't always handle when things get really rough, and there will be instances where the rider forgets that." Of course there are lots of folks on 0mm rear travel bikes with aggressive geo/tires/inserts/brakes and even some on 0mm/0mm travel double hardtails. I can't recall any times in the last few years of dedicated hardtailing when I've just lost my mind and thrown my bike into stuff on black diamond+ trails and had my Bank Manager call to talk to me about bounced Geo Cheques. ;-)

Heck my last few FS bikes have been 130mm-140mm with burly parts/aggressive geo and no Geo Cheque bouncing has occurred either. It seems like one of the fun things about riding any particular bike is learning what it does well/poorly and figuring how to get it down the trails you want to ride with the most smiles.

Is this concern actually a valid one? It sounded kind of odd to me.

If that comment sounds odd to you, it's probably because it requires context. 

All else being equal (ie the rider) every bike has a limit with respect to terrain vs speed, basically. 

Better Geo ups the level of terrain but not necessarily the speed at which you can ride it. 

That's where the cheque cashing comes in, as soon as speed increases, and in some terrain there's just a minimum speed at which you can even maintain, at which point sketchiness in unavoidable. 

It's entirely possible for someone's particular terrain, riding style, and skill set to make it seem as though suspension does not mean a lot, sounds like that's you. 

Obviously not the case for everyone. 

Take a rigid, hard tail, or 120mm bike for a few cypress laps at speed. 

You'll either ride slower or feel more stressed (psychologically and physically), or both. I guarantee it. And that's ok. But it's a thing, and it'll happen no matter how slack you are. 

There's a point at which suspension definitely matters. 

I'm not hating on rigid/HT, have one and love it and my main FS is only 130mm, but these posts that basically imply suspension travel is universally irrelevant are just wrong. Maybe it's largely irrelevant for how and where you ride. 

I was up on Seymour yesterday and came across a trail that starts with what is basically several six foot drops a couple bike lengths apart with landings that are just loose chunky gnar and thought of this thread. If anyone could look at that entrance in person and tell me with a straight face that it's be fine a a rigid bike as long as it had good geo, they're either delusional or a super hero. Just no way. There comes a point where suspension matters. Maybe not for you, but it does exist.

Suspension definitely matters when it comes to drops and to some extent chunk.  Lack of suspension limits speed in chunk.  When I'm riding rigid forks on my Krampus there's certainly a speed limit cf 140 Pikes cf 140/140 FS cf 160/140 FS.  I can ride the same trails on rigid as FS (there are a couple of drops ~5ft I haven't tried rigid or HT) but way slower and sketchier.

Posted by: Kenny

I'm not hating on rigid/HT, have one and love it and my main FS is only 130mm, but these posts that basically imply suspension travel is universally irrelevant are just wrong. 

I'm never going to say suspension is irrelevant. So if you are talking to me you misread me. I'm asking are people unable to understand the bike they are on and ride accordingly? That's what the quote and the discussion I am referring to suggests. It seems to me like people are able to figure this out as I have never had an issue riding trails [including harder ones] within the capabilities of my bike nor have the people I have known and seen in action.

If I ever get an invite to Rampage I won't be taking my rigid bike. ;-)

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: Kenny

I'm not hating on rigid/HT, have one and love it and my main FS is only 130mm, but these posts that basically imply suspension travel is universally irrelevant are just wrong. 

I'm asking are people unable to understand the bike they are on and ride accordingly?

I feel like the most enjoyable riding one can do is riding a bike outside it’s intended window, but when I say that I’m referring to terrain rather than speed. Taking an inappropriate bicycle through gnarly stuff is great fun. Trying to do it fast tends to be a recipe for disaster.