NSMB - 2022 - Hardtail Thread...

Marino has the fork done at long last. Paint then ship! Hopefully will have it all by july-ish

Dear Esteemed Hardtailers, i'm after a little advice...

I'm always thinking about the "next" bike and until recently it was a Cotic Solaris Max (29er - not to progressive 120mm HT) - something I could ride everywhere that is a little more progressive than my -2 Krampus but significantly different to complement my Murmur (reasonably progressive and long).  I've been running the Krampus in rigid mode and really liking it to the point I don't want to put bouncy fork back on it.  Hence the idea of the Solaris Max has gone on the back burner.

I recently read https://theradavist.com/2022-breadwinner-bad-otis-review/ and it got me thinking about a 27.5 HT - like a Stylus or similar longish travel HT.  Something that isn't going to be as fast as a 29HT but more fun and still with the ability to ride everything / everywhere.  Also with short CS's which I haven't ridden for a long time (Murmur = 445, K = 446). 

I was wondering if anyone had gone through a similar thought process and where they got to with it?

Posted by: fartymarty

I recently read https://theradavist.com/2022-breadwinner-bad-otis-review/ and it got me thinking about a 27.5 HT - like a Stylus or similar longish travel HT. Something that isn't going to be as fast as a 29HT but more fun and still with the ability to ride everything / everywhere. Also with short CS's which I haven't ridden for a long time (Murmur = 445, K = 446).

I was wondering if anyone had gone through a similar thought process and where they got to with it?

Image from the Radvist article FM linked to.

Both my 29er HTs have short-ish back ends [CS 424mm - 430mm], 140mm forks and will go [almost] anywhere I would ride a bike. The shorter bike has a very agile/slashy feel which is as much maneuverability as I can take advantage of when "playing" on the trails. Riding fast on a HT I would prefer to stick with wagon wheels so a 275er HT has not appealed and given the rigid back end I'm not going to ride the bike any harder with a 160mm fork than a 140mm fork so I'm not motivated to go longer travel.

If you are someone with the skills to really move the bike around, manual for days and get airborne in all sorts of ways I can see the appeal of the smaller wheels. A HT is buttery smooth when it's not touching the ground anyways!

Perhaps one of those French Moo-L-Et bikes with the 29er front and 275er back end would be of interest? Could be the best of both worlds for what you are after.

Posted by: fartymarty

Dear Esteemed Hardtailers, i'm after a little advice...

I'm always thinking about the "next" bike and until recently it was a Cotic Solaris Max (29er - not to progressive 120mm HT) - something I could ride everywhere that is a little more progressive than my -2 Krampus but significantly different to complement my Murmur (reasonably progressive and long).  I've been running the Krampus in rigid mode and really liking it to the point I don't want to put bouncy fork back on it.  Hence the idea of the Solaris Max has gone on the back burner.

I recently read https://theradavist.com/2022-breadwinner-bad-otis-review/ and it got me thinking about a 27.5 HT - like a Stylus or similar longish travel HT.  Something that isn't going to be as fast as a 29HT but more fun and still with the ability to ride everything / everywhere.  Also with short CS's which I haven't ridden for a long time (Murmur = 445, K = 446). 

I was wondering if anyone had gone through a similar thought process and where they got to with it?

You mean like this?

Chainstays are 425. Riding it is exactly like a bike you havent ridden in a long time. It's fast turning, easy to get on its back wheel and bunnyhop and not as fast rolling as a 29er. It's amazing how much harder new school 29ers are to move around. They are capable, but this one goes down the north shore blacks same as my primer. As much as I enjoy riding this bike I don't think I would be happy with it being my only bike. It is a bit more work negotiating trails on it. Roots and rocks that a 29er rolls over may need some extra body English. You feel a lot more of the trail as well.

RAH - That's exactly the sort of bike I'm thinking of.  It would complement rather than replace any of my current bikes.  

If I had to have "one bike to rule them all" it would have to be a 29HT.

Vik - agree that 140 is a good max amount of travel number for a HT irrespective of wheel size - it's just that something like a Stylus is designed around 160.  I could run a 29x140 fork which would be similar to 275x160.  I'm not sure on a Moo-L-eT - The mixed wheel size messes with my OCD altho they are probably a blast to ride.

Posted by: fartymarty

RAH - That's exactly the sort of bike I'm thinking of.  It would complement rather than replace any of my current bikes.  

If I had to have "one bike to rule them all" it would have to be a 29HT.

Vik - agree that 140 is a good max amount of travel number for a HT irrespective of wheel size - it's just that something like a Stylus is designed around 160.  I could run a 29x140 fork which would be similar to 275x160.  I'm not sure on a Moo-L-eT - The mixed wheel size messes with my OCD altho they are probably a blast to ride.

Extra travel on 27.5 is worth it. Gets the bars up a bit higher and having a more plush front end helps with the reduced roll over. I'm not sure why vic likes 140. He always runs 2-3 inches of spacers, he could just have more travel and end up at the same height. I have 160-170 on my hardtails and only need 10-15mm of spacers under the stem. Mullet is ok but still not as fun.

Posted by: RAHrider

I'm not sure why vic likes 140. He always runs 2-3 inches of spacers, he could just have more travel and end up at the same height. I have 160-170 on my hardtails and only need 10-15mm of spacers under the stem. Mullet is ok but still not as fun.

I mean the obvious answer is that 30mm more on the fork changes the geo in a way that 30mm of spacers or bar height doesn't. So they are two totally different options. Having ridden a 160mm forked HT I didn't get any benefit out of the extra travel so I wouldn't seek the extra travel over a 140mm fork just because. The rigid rear end is going to have to get past whatever the fork hits so after a point it's not going to matter if you have a 200mm fork up front you can't hit bigger stuff with the rear.

I used to think that about the doctahawk - who needs 170-180mm travel on a hardtail? Over the past 3 years my travel has increased on my hardtails and I haven't looked back and now I run 170 on my primer. I wouldn't suggest bumping a 140 hardtail up to 170 for the reason you mention but if I were buying a hardtail and going to run 30mm of extra stack height, for my style of riding, an extra 30mm of travel is better than 30mm of steerer. Different strokes for different folks, whenever I try to lower the forks, I end up missing the travel. My experience of hardcore hartails is not to be afraid of a bit more travel. There really isn't a downside imo if you are running anything in the L/XL size range. I could see the stack being an issue for shorter riders potentially.

I don't need 170-180mm of fork on my "big FS bike" and I am pondering which hardtail frame to setup with a rigid fork so it seems like we just have different needs/preferences when it comes to front suspension.

Posted by: RAHrider

I used to think that about the doctahawk - who needs 170-180mm travel on a hardtail? Over the past 3 years my travel has increased on my hardtails and I haven't looked back and now I run 170 on my primer. I wouldn't suggest bumping a 140 hardtail up to 170 for the reason you mention but if I were buying a hardtail and going to run 30mm of extra stack height, for my style of riding, an extra 30mm of travel is better than 30mm of steerer. Different strokes for different folks, whenever I try to lower the forks, I end up missing the travel. My experience of hardcore hartails is not to be afraid of a bit more travel. There really isn't a downside imo if you are running anything in the L/XL size range. I could see the stack being an issue for shorter riders potentially.

Yes.

Especially the size thing. I have a L docta and think if my wife rode one in her size (she’s a fair bit shorter than me) she would find it unwieldy.

Once you get bigger in general the long fork, long reach, long everything makes sense.

I think a person that’s 5’6” on a medium 27.5 bike with a 140mm fork scales up to a 6’ person on a 29r with a 170mm fork. Not even taking into account the difference in rider weight that would typically accompany that increase in height. To me a bigger person needs more suspension travel.

Maybe the math isn’t perfect but you get the gist of it.

Posted by: Vikb

I don't need 170-180mm of fork on my "big FS bike" and I am pondering which hardtail frame to setup with a rigid fork so it seems like we just have different needs/preferences when it comes to front suspension.

Vik I'm with you regarding HT travel. I run my Krampus at 120. I find the rear as the limiting factor.

If I was on a progressive HT I would only want 130-140mm up front for the same reason. Any more and I'm going FS. For disclosure I haven't ridden a super progressive HT - maybe I would have a change of mind if I rode one.

Also with more travel you end up with too much of a HA change as you go through the travel.

RAH, Brett - I get you arguments re bar height but run spacers and a 70mm rise bar to get the bars up. I'm currently on a 70mm bar and 20mm spacers on my 140mm Murmur. 160 fork I lose the 20mm of spacers.

The extra travel does decrease HA which does help therefore running a longer fork with a ton of progression makes sense. As you never use the last 20mm of travel.

Speaking of longer travel forks, my suspension corrected 500mm AC custom fork is finally done. My point was not that all hartails need long travel but if I need the stack height anyway and the bike can handle the travel without screwing up the geo, I have never found extra travel detrimental on my hardtails. I do need stack height, so this one is suspension corrected for a 170mm 27.5 fork at 20% sag. I'm going to run it mullet.

For those interested in pricing for a Marino.

Custom hardtail and custom fork with tapered steerer

Reynolds 725 tubing

custom engraving in the headtube and chainstay

horizontal dropouts with two sets of dropouts. 3 thruaxles (I think)

With shipping $650 USD

Shipping this week I beleive. they say 4-6 weeks.

Cheese sauce that's a beautiful paint job.