^ I'd consider that for sure.
My Doctahawk purchase was 100% based on wanting to buy a made in Canada frame and in terms of feely goodness it seemed like the right move, but the value of a custom Ti frame holds up too. Maybe that will be the next one for me? Oh man, I could do a fat bike with proper geometry ...
Posted by: mrbrett
^ I'd consider that for sure.
My Doctahawk purchase was 100% based on wanting to buy a made in Canada frame and in terms of feely goodness it seemed like the right move, but the value of a custom Ti frame holds up too. Maybe that will be the next one for me? Oh man, I could do a fat bike with proper geometry ...
I would like to see a DoctaFat.
Posted by: craw
Now seems like a good time to renew the suggestion that you can buy a fully 100% custom ti frame from https://waltlytitanium.com/ in China for around $1000USD. That's custom geometry, picking tube diameters, tube wall thickness, cable guide placement, rear end spacing, etc and it's titanium.
It's crossed my mind. I would like to ride at least one Ti frame in my MTB career.
I had a brief look at Waltly a while back, and I love the concept and value. But I was simply overwhelmed by the amount of spec options and ultimately got scared off because if I'm paying that much, I want it to work well and suit my expectations from the getgo. Options like tubing diameter, shape, thickness, etc etc etc...
I don't want to spec and build a V1, then iron out and refine my spec mistakes to a V2 and eventual V3. This doesn't seem like an uncommon theme from guys who have chosen to go down the custom route irregardless of frame material. I don't think I'm in tune enough to really notice minute changes, but if I know that the option is there in my mind, the mind starts to think....
Posted by: craw
Now seems like a good time to renew the suggestion that you can buy a fully 100% custom ti frame from https://waltlytitanium.com/ in China for around $1000USD. That's custom geometry, picking tube diameters, tube wall thickness, cable guide placement, rear end spacing, etc and it's titanium.
Thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten about these.
Ti might get me to open my wallet a tiny bit more…
Posted by: UFO
Posted by: fartymarty
At least Chromag have gone back to threaded BBs.
The Surface and og Rootdown has always had threaded BB's dating back to it's earliest incarnation
The move to press fits came with the Primer and Rootdown BA, when the party wagon wanted short as possible chainstays with big tire clearance on emerging 29" geometry
Ah didn't know that.
Posted by: mrbrett
Hardtail party guy said a Chromag felt stiff to him, not sure which one. Maybe a Rootdown. Maybe a Primer.
But isn’t he like 5’8” and 160 lbs? He mentioned sometime how big he was
At 6’ and 200 lbs* I have a different idea of what a “stiff” feeling frame is. Like if I got on his bike and said the fork was too soft.
*More like 210 recently but it’s been 2 years of working from home and unlimited snacks.
If I remember correctly, he mentionned once that he "never tried a Chromag that didn't feel too stiff to him". This surprised me, considering how people seem to unanimously love their Chromags.
Posted by: FlipSide
Posted by: mrbrett
Hardtail party guy said a Chromag felt stiff to him, not sure which one. Maybe a Rootdown. Maybe a Primer.
But isn’t he like 5’8” and 160 lbs? He mentioned sometime how big he was
At 6’ and 200 lbs* I have a different idea of what a “stiff” feeling frame is. Like if I got on his bike and said the fork was too soft.
*More like 210 recently but it’s been 2 years of working from home and unlimited snacks.
If I remember correctly, he mentionned once that he "never tried a Chromag that didn't feel too stiff to him". This surprised me, considering how people seem to unanimously love their Chromags.
That seems about right to me. One person who can make a distinction like that and saying it out loud versus 100 fanboys who love the brand and probably wouldn't consider a HT if Chromag and its BC pedigree hadn't been actively promoting HTs for 20+ years.
Is there another brand that has done more to legitimize HTs as a daily driver on the gnarliest trails as Chromag? They earned that spot.
Posted by: FlipSide
If I remember correctly, he mentionned once that he "never tried a Chromag that didn't feel too stiff to him". This surprised me, considering how people seem to unanimously love their Chromags.
The both of those ^^ statements can be true at the same time. Most people are not really thinking about frame flex and HTs. The few that might think about it probably don't have experience with a variety different HTs to base their opinion on.
Looking at it another way read a bunch of HT product pages and frame flex doesn't get mentioned much so it's not something the marketing people think their customers care about and they are probably right in the aggregate.
I genuinely don't know how much my Doctahawk flexes to improve or reduce the ride quality. I believe a suspension fork, XT cranks, wheels, and 2.4-2.6" tires yield way sooner and in much greater amounts, sooo???
Like if you could by some form of magic make my frame flex half as much would I notice based on ride impression?
Posted by: mrbrett
I genuinely don't know how much my Doctahawk flexes to improve or reduce the ride quality. I believe a suspension fork, XT cranks, wheels, and 2.4-2.6" tires yield way sooner and in much greater amounts, sooo???
Like if you could by some form of magic make my frame flex half as much would I notice based on ride impression?
Frame flex and tires/suspension fork filter out different parts of the frequency spectrum. So you can definitely have a hardtail with a nice fork and plus tires that has a harsh ride.
I also think you'd have no trouble noticing the difference between a nice supple HT and one that was overly stiff if you rode them back to back on the same trail.
Frame flex also has a performance aspect that we've discussed earlier in the thread.
Posted by: mrbrett
I genuinely don't know how much my Doctahawk flexes to improve or reduce the ride quality. I believe a suspension fork, XT cranks, wheels, and 2.4-2.6" tires yield way sooner and in much greater amounts, sooo???
Like if you could by some form of magic make my frame flex half as much would I notice based on ride impression?
At some point it's too flexy. My first attempt at a custom ti frame ended up too flexy. My XXL super long tubes at a relatively small outer diameter and no seatstay bridge made for a flex you could feel while riding. On moderate terrain it was kind of nice but as soon as things got spicy and you muscled the bike around you could fold it while riding. I sold that frame to a tall guy who was 20lbs lighter and he's still happy. The replacement frame was all straight tubes, bigger OD tubes everywhere including the rear end and a big seatstay bridge. This one is perfect. Still compliant but very controlled. I still have this bike and have no plan to upgrade.
Most production hardtails now especially Chromags are overbuilt and tough as hell and given their intended use with big tires and inserts and big forks that makes sense. That being said even on gnarly trails I can feel the ti compliance in my bike and it's pretty sweet. It would be a lot less enjoyable if it rode like it was made out of wood. But maybe having your HT be overbuilt and super bomber is a good way for a secondary bike that's heirloom quality that you intend to keep for a very long time.
I've experienced a steel frame that was too flexy on the road for sure. Kind of hard to nail down on a MTB though. I can see what you guys mean though, there's definitely a dimension there.
You can build Ti and Steel bikes to ride similarly. Cost will be different, but I agree most hardtails are heavily overbuilt and ride quality suffers - especially with dropper posts which aren’t always thought about in the frame context.
At the same time I’ve seen Waltly frames (2) that had weird compromises that a more established builder with a brand they cared about would have refused to do.
One of the single biggest differences I notice between good frames and less good frames (cost aside) is how straight and true they are. They roll noticeably better.
One of the real benefits with better builders is the rider doesn’t have to understand the whole system of nested choices that exist. They can describe the characteristics they want and the builder can execute. There’s a cost, but it’s worth it for most people.
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