The tube spec should influence the ride as much as the weight. I’ve ridden plenty of bikes that felt heavy but weighed only fractions more than lovely bikes that rode ‘light’. The tendency to massively overbuild rear ends on trail hardtails is really dumb.
NSMB - 2022 - Hardtail Thread...
Posted by: Heinous
The tube spec should influence the ride as much as the weight. I’ve ridden plenty of bikes that felt heavy but weighed only fractions more than lovely bikes that rode ‘light’. The tendency to massively overbuild rear ends on trail hardtails is really dumb.
Right after geo/bike fit having a frame that flexes appropriately for the rider/intended use is critical to a great hardtail/rigid bike experience. Once you've had a "supple" hardtail frame it's painful to ride one of the typically overbuilt frames that ride like a boat anchor. It's too bad that aspect of frame design isn't really important for a lot of bike companies and so hard to convey/understand when buying a bike you can't demo.
Posted by: Mic
I am really happy with my Kona Process but I got an old 26" Stylus kicking around which has not seen that much action the last year - so right now I am thinking of turning it into a kind of indoor park/skate park/dirt jump hardtail.....some background, I do not have the money to get even a used DJ bike.
Thought about putting some maxxis dht on it, get rid of the dropper post and change to single speed with a chain tensioner thingy. Should be fun.
Anybody of you guys ever done that? Or do you know some people who did it? Curious what you are thinking....
Mic, can't recall if mentioned it before but if your Stylus is a 2007 or around that it can take a 27.5 rear wheel. Now can't confirm how big a tire but have seen over the years a handful where it was done. Know at least on the Samurai before destroyed I had run 27.5x2.3 on it no problem.
Posted by: Endurimil
Posted by: Mic
I am really happy with my Kona Process but I got an old 26" Stylus kicking around which has not seen that much action the last year - so right now I am thinking of turning it into a kind of indoor park/skate park/dirt jump hardtail.....some background, I do not have the money to get even a used DJ bike.
Thought about putting some maxxis dht on it, get rid of the dropper post and change to single speed with a chain tensioner thingy. Should be fun.
Anybody of you guys ever done that? Or do you know some people who did it? Curious what you are thinking....
Mic, can't recall if mentioned it before but if your Stylus is a 2007 or around that it can take a 27.5 rear wheel. Now can't confirm how big a tire but have seen over the years a handful where it was done. Know at least on the Samurai before destroyed I had run 27.5x2.3 on it no problem.
Cheers, mate.
Right now getting all the necessary parts all at once would be too much money wise, so I have postponed the plan to God Knows When.
And....at the moment I am having a lot of fun cruising on a bmx and learning to manual on that thing. Reminds me of my skateboarding days....cruising and just sessioning a curb and experimenting. Sweet.
The only thing that keeps me from really digging deep is .... time and stuff life throws at us older peeps. Ah, the joys of adolescence. How I miss them at times.
Posted by: Vikb
Posted by: Heinous
The tube spec should influence the ride as much as the weight. I’ve ridden plenty of bikes that felt heavy but weighed only fractions more than lovely bikes that rode ‘light’. The tendency to massively overbuild rear ends on trail hardtails is really dumb.
Right after geo/bike fit having a frame that flexes appropriately for the rider/intended use is critical to a great hardtail/rigid bike experience. Once you've had a "supple" hardtail frame it's painful to ride one of the typically overbuilt frames that ride like a boat anchor. It's too bad that aspect of frame design isn't really important for a lot of bike companies and so hard to convey/understand when buying a bike you can't demo.
This is one area I really appreciate and pay attention to Hardtail Party reviews. But when you're looking at a bike he hasn't ridden, then you're still out of luck . . . The Rå apparently has a pretty thick/heavy seatstay by usual bicycle tubeset standards, but the builder said it damps the ride well and he's using the same tube on his gravel bikes too, he liked it so much. I only have my Stanton to compare to really, but that's one of the things I'm interested to feel between the two bikes.
It's an area I'm interested in comparing more, if I can find some friendly locals with different HT frames to try. My buddies are all on full sus bikes.
So the MoXie has been lego'd a bit, and had its first carpark test today.
Diamond down to 140 from 160 and -2° works headset. I was worried I'd drag pedals on the flat, but feels OK - singletrack will give me the go/no-go on whether I'll keep my pins with a 295mm BB height.
Will post a pic and measurements soon, but looking forward to giving it a hoon.
Posted by: velocipedestrian
Diamond down to 140 from 160 and -2° works headset. I was worried I'd drag pedals on the flat, but feels OK - singletrack will give me the go/no-go on whether I'll keep my pins with a 295mm BB height.
Good luck! My Forge has a 74mm BB drop/~307mm BBH with a 140mm fork and that's the lowest BB I can practically ride with 170mm cranks and reasonably thin pedals.
Posted by: eriksg
This is one area I really appreciate and pay attention to Hardtail Party reviews. But when you're looking at a bike he hasn't ridden, then you're still out of luck . . . The Rå apparently has a pretty thick/heavy seatstay by usual bicycle tubeset standards, but the builder said it damps the ride well and he's using the same tube on his gravel bikes too, he liked it so much. I only have my Stanton to compare to really, but that's one of the things I'm interested to feel between the two bikes.
It's definitely worth checking out reviews from people that appreciate a supple frame. Especially from people you know have ridden a lot of hardtails. I do have to be careful though as Steve from HTP is ~30lbs lighter and 6" shorter than me so what we'd each say is the "perfect" flexing frame is likely a bit different. Like when I watch his Pipedream Sirius review he finds that frame stiffer than I do, but that makes sense if you adjust for weight.
I'd also note that Steve at HTP has a good handle on the comfort side of hardtail flex, but not the performance side of it. What Bicycle Quarterly calls "planing" and that's pretty important as well if you can about climbing/rolling terrain pedaling speed/efficiency. The discussion around planing is very niche so that's not a slam on HTP as mountain bikers are just not thinking in those terms for the most part.
Last edited by: Vikb on March 5, 2022, 5:44 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Thanks Vik, that's fascinating stuff right there! It makes me wonder how you design in optimal planing for a particular rider, like what parameters need to be measured and adjusted per rider vs. what can stay the same across a wide variety of riders. It seems like it might need finer tuning than just compliance for comfort.
It adds another dimension to what I've noticed (or think I've noticed) about frame flex, which is power delivery being just slightly less affected by bumps in the same way that suspension or lower tire pressure helps, but to a lesser extent. But I've not been able to back-to-back test on the same trails so this may be more imagined than real.
Posted by: eriksg
Thanks Vik, that's fascinating stuff right there! It makes me wonder how you design in optimal planing for a particular rider, like what parameters need to be measured and adjusted per rider vs. what can stay the same across a wide variety of riders. It seems like it might need finer tuning than just compliance for comfort.
I built a couple of custom bikes now with "planing" in mind and I have had a number of production bikes that ranged from supple to tank. The performance benefit seems to be clear. The supple bikes just fly up climbs and on rolling terrain. The stiff ones do not. Now without building multiple identical frames with different tubing and doing blind back to back tests [like BQ did] it's not possible to be 100% sure or put a number on the performance advantage. Since bikes that "plane" for me are also bikes that are comfortable to ride it's worth getting there in any case.
I don't know of any bike builder that's got "planing" dialed for a hardtail mountain bike. If we were talking rando bikes there are a number of builders you can contact who can reliably deliver that for you once they have your size/weight/power understood. So what do you do? If you are buying production bikes get one that is not overly stiff ride it and see what happens. The bikes I have ridden that "plane" have a fairly specific feeling to them when I am pushing hard. They just want more and more power and it feels great pushing the pedals harder. The result is both high speeds for a given power level and a big smile. Be ready to sell a frame that doesn't deliver for you.
For a custom bike you can work with the builder to deliver that supple ride so getting an overly stiff frame is not a problem. OTOH for a mountain bike you can have too much flex that will be an issue for charging hard back downhill. Both my custom bikes ended up right at the edge of too much flex. They both had an amazing ride quality, but I couldn't ask for more flex out of those frames and still have a useable machine for challenging conditions. So there are risks with how hard you push the design envelope. If you stick with the same builder...over time they'll understand your needs better and better so they can tweak frames to get close to the limit for flex without going overboard.
Unfortunately almost nobody is talking about planing for hardtail mountain bikes so you have to explore the possibilities on your own for the most part.
Last edited by: Vikb on March 5, 2022, 4:09 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Posted by: eriksg
It adds another dimension to what I've noticed (or think I've noticed) about frame flex, which is power delivery being just slightly less affected by bumps in the same way that suspension or lower tire pressure helps, but to a lesser extent. But I've not been able to back-to-back test on the same trails so this may be more imagined than real.
In regards to this ^^ comment I would say that for specific frequencies of impacts a supple frame will definitely add a suspension effect and allow for increased speed as well as the power delivery of "planing". You have to think about all the trail inputs to a bike/rider system in the sense of a Fourier Transform frequency spectrum. Each component of the system will react with different parts of the frequencies the bike/rider sees. So depending on what a particular trail is like at a particular speed you'll see more or less benefit from something like a supple frame.
The frequency spectrum explanation partially makes sense of something I've struggled to fully explain. I've found certain speed ranges on certain terrain to feel good, sometimes going faster magically smooths things just a tad. Sometimes it's slower that does it.
Then you get a storm and the trail surface changes, with lots of debris or eroded washboard, and the most comfortable speed changes.
Now there may be other factors than planing that explain that observation, but thinking about the vibrational modes of the frame under load gives me another set of possible factors to consider I didn't have before.
Posted by: Vikb
Posted by: velocipedestrian
Diamond down to 140 from 160 and -2° works headset. I was worried I'd drag pedals on the flat, but feels OK - singletrack will give me the go/no-go on whether I'll keep my pins with a 295mm BB height.
Good luck! My Forge has a 74mm BB drop/~307mm BBH with a 140mm fork and that's the lowest BB I can practically ride with 170mm cranks and reasonably thin pedals.
The combo of headset and lower fork dropped the BB 10mm static. I was happy with 305mm BBH but might take a while to ride it in anger - I've just found cracks in the paint by the welds behind the head tube... Pipedream tell me they've never had a frame fail there, but to get it sandblasted to check the metal. Boo!
(obviously boo cracks / blasting / checking / painting. Not that they suggest caution.)
Posted by: velocipedestrian
The combo of headset and lower fork dropped the BB 10mm static. I was happy with 305mm BBH but might take a while to ride it in anger - I've just found cracks in the paint by the welds behind the head tube... Pipedream tell me they've never had a frame fail there, but to get it sandblasted to check the metal. Boo!
(obviously boo cracks / blasting / checking / painting. Not that they suggest caution.)
That's a bummer. Is it the current version of the Moxie? You definitely don't want to take a chance with a head tube failure.
06. PIPEDREAM CRASH REPLACEMENT WARRANTY:
To protect consumers’ investment further, if a Pipedream frame is damaged and is not covered by our manufacturer warranty, Pipedream will provide a replacement frame for 50% of current retail. This additional warranty is for individuals who have damaged their frame due to crashes or accidents. No dealer wholesale; this program deals directly with the consumer.
BTW - this ^^ could prove useful.
Last edited by: Vikb on March 6, 2022, 6:42 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Having been confounded by attempts to post an image, I will instead pose a question. I have a 2021 Salsa Timberjack which is the first “modern” bike I’ve owned. I like it a lot, but can’t help but think it’d do well with a -2 angleset. My understanding is that in addition to the obvious effect, this will steepen the STA, lower the BB height, and increase the wheelbase, all factors I *think* will be good. Any input from the NSMB hardtail/angleset gurus would be greatly appreciated.
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