NSMB - 2022 - Full Suspension Bike Thread

Posted by: Hepcat

This year I switched to a bike that's a few pounds heavier, my climbing times are identical. 

Beyond wheels and tires, I think there may be nothing measurable to all that weight weenie-ing. Spent so many years and dollars hand wringing about grams 🤦‍♂️

#1 Transition #2 Knolly my random vote. My riding buddy is an Evil dealer, and no matter how many times I try his bikes that hover float feeling just never jives with me.

There's a lot more to good climbing than bike weight. Anyone who's ever had fit/ergonomic issues will tell you that gaining a few pounds is nothing compared to a comfortable riding position and effective suspension.

Posted by: craw

Posted by: Hepcat

This year I switched to a bike that's a few pounds heavier, my climbing times are identical. 

Beyond wheels and tires, I think there may be nothing measurable to all that weight weenie-ing. Spent so many years and dollars hand wringing about grams 🤦‍♂️

#1 Transition #2 Knolly my random vote. My riding buddy is an Evil dealer, and no matter how many times I try his bikes that hover float feeling just never jives with me.

There's a lot more to good climbing than bike weight. Anyone who's ever had fit/ergonomic issues will tell you that gaining a few pounds is nothing compared to a comfortable riding position and effective suspension.

Weight in tires matters more than an overall weight

Posted by: T-mack

Posted by: craw

Posted by: Hepcat

This year I switched to a bike that's a few pounds heavier, my climbing times are identical. 

Beyond wheels and tires, I think there may be nothing measurable to all that weight weenie-ing. Spent so many years and dollars hand wringing about grams 🤦‍♂️

#1 Transition #2 Knolly my random vote. My riding buddy is an Evil dealer, and no matter how many times I try his bikes that hover float feeling just never jives with me.

There's a lot more to good climbing than bike weight. Anyone who's ever had fit/ergonomic issues will tell you that gaining a few pounds is nothing compared to a comfortable riding position and effective suspension.

Weight in tires matters more than an overall weight

I agree that weight doesn't impact climbing as much as people believe. I was suggesting the weight would effect other aspects of the ride. He is coming from a 27.5 bike with older geometry. On his existing bike the wheels are far lighter, have less centripetal forces and a shorter wheel base on a lighter bike. I was just thinking that trying to keep a few of those variables in check would make for an easier transition to a longer and heavier bike.

For myself, the difference between my 27.5 hardtail and my 29er is quite stark in terms of the loss of quickness in handling and manoeuvrability and they both have similar geometry. I avoid super long and heavy 29ers as they lose the part of the the ride I like best. If he is looking to go straight fast, the chicoten may be a great bike but if he likes the fun factor of his warden a heavier long travel long wheelbase 29er bike may not be as good as a slightly lighter, slightly shorter one.

Posted by: RAHrider

I agree that weight doesn't impact climbing as much as people believe. I was suggesting the weight would effect other aspects of the ride. He is coming from a 27.5 bike with older geometry. On his existing bike the wheels are far lighter, have less centripetal forces and a shorter wheel base on a lighter bike. I was just thinking that trying to keep a few of those variables in check would make for an easier transition to a longer and heavier bike.

For myself, the difference between my 27.5 hardtail and my 29er is quite stark in terms of the loss of quickness in handling and manoeuvrability and they both have similar geometry. I avoid super long and heavy 29ers as they lose the part of the the ride I like best. If he is looking to go straight fast, the chicoten may be a great bike but if he likes the fun factor of his warden a heavier long travel long wheelbase 29er bike may not be as good as a slightly lighter, slightly shorter one.

Thanks everyone for your opinion. Indeed, RAH, that's exactly where I am right now.

I was hoping to gain a little bit on all aspects of my ride ! Am I asking too much ? lol !

Initially, I wanted to switch to chilcotin, because of my very positive experience with knolly.

And then I read, heard, watched some reviews of people mentioning it was all about going straight fast ! So I started to wonder, if maybe, there could be a better option ...

Those reviewers also mention : "If I was living on the North shore, things would be different ..." ; so it might actually still be my best bet ... Spoiled kid dilemma !

Well, it looks like I can't go really wrong with any of these three bikes. I take note that weigh is a less important factor than geometry, and a good old try out will be the best way to find out.

Anyone would come ride with me and switch bike for couple of miles ? I provide after ride beer.

Posted by: Vincent66

Posted by: RAHrider

I agree that weight doesn't impact climbing as much as people believe. I was suggesting the weight would effect other aspects of the ride. He is coming from a 27.5 bike with older geometry. On his existing bike the wheels are far lighter, have less centripetal forces and a shorter wheel base on a lighter bike. I was just thinking that trying to keep a few of those variables in check would make for an easier transition to a longer and heavier bike.

For myself, the difference between my 27.5 hardtail and my 29er is quite stark in terms of the loss of quickness in handling and manoeuvrability and they both have similar geometry. I avoid super long and heavy 29ers as they lose the part of the the ride I like best. If he is looking to go straight fast, the chicoten may be a great bike but if he likes the fun factor of his warden a heavier long travel long wheelbase 29er bike may not be as good as a slightly lighter, slightly shorter one.

Thanks everyone for your opinion. Indeed, RAH, that's exactly where I am right now.

I was hoping to gain a little bit on all aspects of my ride ! Am I asking too much ? lol !

Initially, I wanted to switch to chilcotin, because of my very positive experience with knolly.

And then I read, heard, watched some reviews of people mentioning it was all about going straight fast ! So I started to wonder, if maybe, there could be a better option ...

Those reviewers also mention : "If I was living on the North shore, things would be different ..." ; so it might actually still be my best bet ... Spoiled kid dilemma !

Well, it looks like I can't go really wrong with any of these three bikes. I take note that weigh is a less important factor than geometry, and a good old try out will be the best way to find out.

Anyone would come ride with me and switch bike for couple of miles ? I provide after ride beer.

Based on the reviews. The We are One Arrival may be up your alley. In fact, I would choose it over all your options both for myself as well as what you are looking for. Very capable bike that favours handling and pedalling. The pinkbike take in their shootout really paints an incredible picture of that bike. Also, the quality is likely better than anything on the market.

Thank you ; only one more problem ; WAO-Arrival build kits start at 10k + tax ...

Posted by: Vincent66

Thank you ; only one more problem ; WAO-Arrival build kits start at 10k + tax ...

Yeah but just look at it! Lol

Rode with a guy that had one, it was even more ridiculous in person. We basically just huddled around it in the parking lot making appreciative noises.

Biggest dude magnet since the Lamborghini Countach.

Posted by: Vincent66

Thank you ; only one more problem ; WAO-Arrival build kits start at 10k + tax ...

This fellow buys bikes once every 5-6 years so maybe he considers dropping a little extra. He gets a package with x01, carbon bar and wheels. I think the extra 3600 over the knolly is a no brainer. The WAO isn't really any more expensive than other brands, they just don't make a mid range version. It's actually a bit of a steal. A x01 santacruz megatower with the same hubs but alloy race face rims is 1100 more expensive at 11099$. Just putting it out there.

Posted by: Znarf

Did you try the 440mm chainstay options?

I recently tried that (compared to stock 445mm) and WOW it is an unexpected BIG difference. My Madonna is much more playful now. I like it even better and will try it on my Jibb next…

Cornering isn‘t affected much, but bunny hops, pumping and lifting the front wheel on trails is more effortless. Rear wheel is a tiny bit more squirrely, but as the Madonna is a very composed bike that doesn‘t bother me.

I ordered the axle inserts and brake mount so I can try this. 

Honestly I am struggling with this bike, I just generally feel like my weight is forced further forward than I'd like.

So far I've tried everything I can think of in terms of fork setup and cockpit setup,  including a very high bar height and various stem lengths, which helped but seems like more of a bandaid than a true fix. The underlying issue/sensation is still there. 

This has been made more evident since I recently put my hardtail back together which has sliding dropouts set in about the middle of the 415-430mm range.  Despite a steeper head angle, shorter stack, and the fact that it's always trying to pitch forward to some degree because well, it's a hardtail, it does not exhibit this sense of trying to launch me OTB when I least expect it. 

I'm a decent rider but flexibility and athleticism are not my strong points. I sometimes wonder if I just don't have what it takes to really move my weight around on this bike. So anyways shortening will be interesting but I also wonder if 440 will be a big enough change.

Posted by: Kenny

Honestly I am struggling with this bike, I just generally feel like my weight is forced further forward than I'd like.

I am not a fan of really "modern" geo bikes for this reason as well as not getting on with particularly long bikes either.  I have used an offset head dropper to get further behind the BB, but that will lengthen the seated distance to the bars so that might be a problem.

Are you having this weird over the bar sensation when you're riding SEATED or when STANDING up? For steep stuff? Or on mellow trails? Because you say "when I least expect it". 

I ride my Madonna 9 out of 10 times instead of the Jibb, because the Madonna feels like an extension of my body after three seasons on it. 

I haven´t felt the Jibb pitching me forward while standing up so far. I find it surprisingly capable with the 160mm fork. I have ridden steepish and rough stuff with the Jibb and the bike does well, but I find it is like with aggro hardtails. Fun but punishing. In the Jibb case, not because the suspension doesn't work well, but because you can go so fast, but 135mm are 135mm, no way around that. 

What keeps me from full on love with the Jibb so far: I feel like I have more weight on my hands for seated riding on extended flat sections compared to my Madonna. (of course the Madonna sags more, but I have the seat further back on the Jibb). It is a bit weird and I'll investigate more. Dynamic ride height and progressive (short travel) rear suspension might be a culprit here. I know several much better riders than me who absolutely shred on the Jibb and love it.

So far I much prefer my Madonna (that bike is 11 out of 10 for me). I have to add though that I seem to enjoy longer travel bikes more, because my joints don´t ache as much post ride. Especially in gnarly terrain. 

I hope you'll find ZEN with the 440mm stays. If not - don´t hesitate to mix things up. When you don't jive with a bike, there's no point NOT to move on. (if financially feasible)

I have heard the complaint ^^ from people who can't get with the new geo so you are not alone , I think you are further forward than on an older style but more centered on the bike, in any case you don't really have a choice but to get with it

SO get forward and depend on that 29"er/ 64degree front end to save your ass, its disconcerting at 1st but it works, I also slam the seat all the way forward on its rails, steep seat angle, wide bars, short stem, elbows out, nose over the bars head way forward I like it a lot

I took the bullit for a ride in 6" of snow and i suprised at just how stable the geo is going DH

Posted by: XXX_er

I have heard the complaint ^^ from people who can't get with the new geo so you are not alone , I think you are further forward than on an older style but more centered on the bike, in any case you don't really have a choice but to get with it

SO get forward and depend on that 29"er/ 64degree front end to save your ass, its disconcerting at 1st but it works, I also slam the seat all the way forward on its rails, steep seat angle, wide bars, short stem, elbows out, nose over the bars head way forward I like it a lot

I took the bullit for a ride in 6" of snow and i suprised at just how stable the geo is going DH

I totally get this but the irony is that, being used to riding bikes with long front centers and short chainstays that will wash out the front tire if you don't weight it agressively, I'm very comfortable riding with a very forward weight bias and I like riding that way - when I know that I can manual the bike at will if I get into trouble. 

If the bike was easier to manual I'd probably ride further forward but the general front heavy sensation means I just can't do it. I'm sure some people can and I'm sure some people have a level of athleticism/technique that the weight shift required to loft the front end doesn't bother them, but I don't seem it be one of them lol. 

Hopefully the shorter chainstay adjustment helps, otherwise like franz said I'll simply chalk the long chainstay experiment up to a lesson learned and do something different. I've never had this issue before, but I've never owned a bike with stays longer than 435mm unt this one.