Knolly Warden Generation Changes: 2014 vs 2017

Hey all,

First post here! Stoked that an independent site like this not only exists but is going strong. I've always been aware of NSMB but recently realizing just how cool it is. Will be spending more time here than pinkbike from now on....

Please move/delete if this isn't the kind thing you talk about here. 

So I'm trying to figure out if there's a significant difference between the 2014-2016 Warden and the 2017-2019 Warden. I can't find anything online comparing the generations, so here we are.

I currently have a 2018 Warden Carbon, but I'm looking at 2015 alloy so I can pocket some cash and play with some upgrades. Ultimately I'm trying to figure out if this is a significant downgrade (ignoring the obvious dif between alloy and carbon - pretend I'm on alloy).

What I have found is the frame geo comparison on Geometry Geeks. But I confess, I kinda don't know much about geometry yet so I'm not sure what the significance of the numbers are. Without going into too much detail; comparing the two gens in large, the 2014 has like 1 degree more head angle, 5mm shorter top tube, 4mm shorter reach, 5mm shorter head tube and wheelbase, etc. The big difference is obviously the 5mm less rear travel.

Other than the travel though, is all this significant? Are there other factors I should be considering? I mean, they must have changed all that for a reason, but it doesn't look like much. As a somewhat intermediate rider, am I realistically going to notice whether I'm on a 2014 or a 2017?

Thanks in advance!

I still ride a Carbon Warden. Love it. I think it stands up fairly well against more modern bikes if you up the fork to 170 and drop it into the low setting. Or as a trail bike with a little less up front and in either high or low. I feel like the quality of the frame also stands the test of time. Mine is a few years old and has had LOTS of time spent on it and there is absolutely no play anywhere. I wouldn't step down to the alloy version. I think the carbon geo just barely holds up as compared with newer geo, I wouldn't go backwards. Also, Knolly will probably never do another carbon bike so you have a bit of a collectors piece there. Mine will stay in use until it breaks and then will go on the wall I think.

Posted by: cdkeyes

Please move/delete if this isn't the kind thing you talk about here. 

This is exactly the kind of thing we need more of here :)

As far as I know the Wardens were basically unchanged from 2014  to 2019 except for the carbon bike. That's the first gen with 27.5 wheels and 160mm travel.

The new bike came out in 2020 and that's when the significant changes happened. I have a 2017 alloy, 170mm up front and a -2 angleset.

I find I prefer the 27.5 wheels for the type of riding I like - I also have a 29er Rocky Instinct for more pedally/XC rides.

The -2 angleset was a noticeable improvement, but I wouldn't say earth shattering.

If the  geo charts show a slight difference I wouldn't worry too much. If you notice a difference you can just put a -2 angleset in there and call it a day.

Andrew Major did an article on the Works Components anglesets you can check out if you're interested.

https://nsmb.com/articles/works-components-angleset/

Posted by: cdkeyes

Hey all,

First post here! Stoked that an independent site like this not only exists but is going strong. I've always been aware of NSMB but recently realizing just how cool it is. Will be spending more time here than pinkbike from now on....

Please move/delete if this isn't the kind thing you talk about here.

So I'm trying to figure out if there's a significant difference between the 2014-2016 Warden and the 2017-2019 Warden. I can't find anything online comparing the generations, so here we are.

I currently have a 2018 Warden Carbon, but I'm looking at 2015 alloy so I can pocket some cash and play with some upgrades. Ultimately I'm trying to figure out if this is a significant downgrade (ignoring the obvious dif between alloy and carbon - pretend I'm on alloy).

What I have found is the frame geo comparison on Geometry Geeks. But I confess, I kinda don't know much about geometry yet so I'm not sure what the significance of the numbers are. Without going into too much detail; comparing the two gens in large, the 2014 has like 1 degree more head angle, 5mm shorter top tube, 4mm shorter reach, 5mm shorter head tube and wheelbase, etc. The big difference is obviously the 5mm less rear travel.

Other than the travel though, is all this significant? Are there other factors I should be considering? I mean, they must have changed all that for a reason, but it doesn't look like much. As a somewhat intermediate rider, am I realistically going to notice whether I'm on a 2014 or a 2017?

Thanks in advance!

First off verify that you can actually sell an older carbon frame for enough $$ to make it worthwhile to swap. I tried to sell a mint condition carbon Pivot Mach 6 after 3-4 years and it was hard to get anything worthwhile for it. I ended up giving it to a friend for free. Confidence in used carbon frames is not high....especially as they get older.

My GF and I rode metal Knollys [Warden and Endo] from the generation you are talking about. That was a great time to ride a Knolly as the frames were engineered so well they were exceptionally light for their intended use, had reasonable BB heights and hadn't gone SuperBoost. The geo chart changes in the metal 142mm hub Wardens/Endos reflected an evolving interpretation of the bikes not any change to the actual geo until we got to the current generation that's for sale now. I think there may have been small running changes like I recall upgraded sizing on the shock mounting bolts that were prone to bend.

If it was me I'd just keep the Carbon Warden you have as I can't see how you are going come out with a lot of money in hand for a bike of the same quality by going to an older metal frame. That said I wouldn't hesitate to ride one of the older metal frames. Like Syncro noted a Works Component headset would update the HTA at a relatively low cost and I'd probably do that.

I sold my 2017 Endo frame to a buddy who is still riding it. I remember it fondly.

I've owned both the aluminum and the carbon Warden.  Honestly I didn't notice a huge difference between them. The carbon frame felt a bit more plush but not significantly lighter.  There's an NSMB article the compares the two bikes and IIRC they also didn't notice a huge difference in ride performance. I'm with Vik that you aren't likely to pocket much cash swapping the frames though.

Posted by: cdkeyes

Other than the travel though, is all this significant? Are there other factors I should be considering? I mean, they must have changed all that for a reason, but it doesn't look like much. As a somewhat intermediate rider, am I realistically going to notice whether I'm on a 2014 or a 2017?

Thanks in advance!

I would suggest that the travel is the least significant change. Slacker head angle, longer reach, and presumably a steeper effective seat tube angle will each have a bigger impact on your riding experience than 5mm of travel.

I think it was Transition that used to have some information explaining their "speed based geometry", which is basically their term for the generic "longer, lower, slacker" movement [i.e. "modern geometry"].  You could review their site for more specific info, but in short, "modern geometry" is something that makes any new bike regardless of brand ride better than an older model.  That said, 2014 is not that long ago and 2017 may not be "modern" enough...

Thanks for the thoughtful responses everybody, really appreciate it! Lots to think about here. 

I went and test road a 2014 alloy Warden, and like skooks said it still felt pretty similar - but that was also just around the block so not saying much. I did read that article comparing the two, and it doesn't make much of a case for carbon - RAHrider I didn't know Knolly wasn't making carbon anymore, but maybe thats why? 

Thanks syncro, I'll check out that angleset! I also checked the geo on the 2020, and like you and Vikb rightly pointed out the geo changes for 2017 were only for carbon - no change on the alloy til 2020, which was significant. 

Vikb I'm not too worried about losing $$$'s because I bought the bike used 5 months ago for a pretty decent price (4K, mint), but I suppose theres no guarantee I'll be able to get all that money back. Still, as RAHrider pointed out - theres still not much sense in going backwards, even if the difference isn't huge. I would pocket maybe 1K which would quickly evaporate with basic modern upgrades (Like a marzocchi fork :) ). I should probably look more into the pitfalls of used carbon... I bought this one quite naively. But theres likely a thread on that somewhere. 

Ride.DMC thanks for the lesson on geo, definitely would not have thought that. Certainly makes the case for the newest gen being significantly different. 

Seems like there is actually pretty solid consensus here - keep the carbon, but the alloy is solid. Maybe I'll just ride it until the newest gen is a couple years old. I guess we'll see what carbon is worth then. 

Thanks again all.