We don't know what our limits are, so to start something with the idea of being limited actually ends up limiting us.
Ellen Langer
Interesting vid that's possibly relevant to cockpit set-ups
I watched that the other day. And there are many other videos on counter steering. My take away is that physics dictate that the only way to turn a two wheeler is to counter steer. People think it’s a conscious effort but we all do it without realizing it. If anyone has ever run up against the side of a deep rut or against a curb you quickly find out that it’s really hard to turn away from the side the tire is rubbing against if not impossible.
There’s a bike video where a reverse turning bike was built. Impossible to ride until the riders brains adapted. Because you must counter steer.
I think that there is a technique called counter steering that is something different. Pushing the inside bar grip down I think is referred to as counter steering but I don’t think that’s the same thing.
Last edited by: andy-eunson on Dec. 2, 2021, 8:59 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Posted by: andy-eunson
There’s a bike video where a reverse turning bike was built. Impossible to ride until the riders brains adapted. Because you must counter steer.
Here it is.
@andy-eunson I've seen people use "counter steering" to mean different things. One would be turning the bars in the opposite direction you want to go like in the first video, with some purposefully turning extra rather than just intuitively.
The other thing would be to aggressively lean the bike into a turn then turning the bars the opposite way to maintain an oversteer (drifting/skidding rear wheel/flat track motorcycle style) turn.
Anyway we don't even need to think about "counter steering" since we will do it intuitively.
As well, for normal turns the rear wheel will take a tighter radius than the front wheel (short cutting inside), for drifting turns the rear wheel will take a larger radius than the front, and for a carved turn on gravel or dirt then the rear wheel follows and front wheel in the same arc (leaving a single narrow rut rather than two tire tracks). And for whatever style turn you want, you are better off thinking about your speed, how much you lean the bike, edge the tires, and where your body centre of mass is relative to the centre line of the bike (inclination and pressure control).
Last edited by: taprider on Dec. 2, 2021, 11:08 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
Posted by: Ride.DMC
Posted by: andy-eunson
There’s a bike video where a reverse turning bike was built. Impossible to ride until the riders brains adapted. Because you must counter steer.
Here it is.
There's so much value in this video. On a side note, I know the trick to getting the money - pm for deets.
What would be awseome is making a bait bike that steers like this and leaving it unlocked to watch the hilarity ensue.
Posted by: taprider
@andy-eunson I've seen people use "counter steering" to mean different things. One would be turning the bars in the opposite direction you want to go like in the first video, with some purposefully turning extra rather than just intuitively.
The other thing would be to aggressively lean the bike into a turn then turning the bars the opposite way to maintain an oversteer (drifting/skidding rear wheel/flat track motorcycle style) turn.
Anyway we don't even need to think about "counter steering" since we will do it intuitively.
As well, for normal turns the rear wheel will take a tighter radius than the front wheel (short cutting inside), for drifting turns the rear wheel will take a larger radius than the front, and for a carved turn on gravel or dirt then the rear wheel follows and front wheel in the same arc (leaving a single narrow rut rather than two tire tracks). And for whatever style turn you want, you are better off thinking about your speed, how much you lean the bike, edge the tires, and where your body centre of mass is relative to the centre line of the bike (inclination and pressure control).
I think the biggest reason most people don't grasp the idea of counter steering is that it happens intuitively and people usually don't go fast enough to really see how it works. At slow speeds it seems like you're turning the wheel in the direction you, and at really low speeds (walking pace) you are so this is probably what throws people off. On a motorcycle, you can easily get up to enough speed where you can see (and feel) the effect of counter steering quite easily. And it's not about pulling the bars in the opposite direction, it's about pushing the bars in the same direction - push right to go right and push left to go left.
Posted by: syncro
There's so much value in this video. On a side note, I know the trick to getting the money - pm for deets.
What would be awseome is making a bait bike that steers like this and leaving it unlocked to watch the hilarity ensue.
Do you mean the $200 he offers people to ride across the stage? I don't think that it's a standing invitation - I think you have to be at one of his talks. But I am curious to know what the trick is.
And I am so on board with the bait bike idea. That would be fantastic.
Posted by: Ride.DMC
Posted by: syncro
There's so much value in this video. On a side note, I know the trick to getting the money - pm for deets.
What would be awseome is making a bait bike that steers like this and leaving it unlocked to watch the hilarity ensue.
Do you mean the $200 he offers people to ride across the stage? I don't think that it's a standing invitation - I think you have to be at one of his talks. But I am curious to know what the trick is.
And I am so on board with the bait bike idea. That would be fantastic.
Right hand on the left grip and left hand on the right grip. We used to do this as kids, and crash.
This is exactly what you do when you ride a motorcycle, you turn the bar in the opposite direction that you want to go in order to lean the bike and initiate a turn. I've come to realize that this is what I actually do while cornering hard on my bicycle. I have also come to recognize that rolling the bars back improves this effect. Anyone know why? I have never actually figured it out but have always been curious.
Posted by: RAHrider
This is exactly what you do when you ride a motorcycle, you turn the bar in the opposite direction that you want to go in order to lean the bike and initiate a turn. I've come to realize that this is what I actually do while cornering hard on my bicycle. I have also come to recognize that rolling the bars back improves this effect. Anyone know why? I have never actually figured it out but have always been curious.
It's the physics in terms of where the force is being applied in relation to the steering axis.
Posted by: Ride.DMC
Do you mean the $200 he offers people to ride across the stage? I don't think that it's a standing invitation - I think you have to be at one of his talks. But I am curious to know what the trick is.
And I am so on board with the bait bike idea. That would be fantastic.
Pop a wheelie and do a catwalk/manual.
There was one of those reverse steering bikes and a bunch of other weird bikes like a slinky bike that you could try in a ball diamond at Trout Lake Illuminares about 15 years ago.
I was able to ride the reverse steering bike by thinking only about leaning the bike and not thinking about steering.
For large cruiser motorcycles (and not MX motos), the bike is far heavier than the rider, and your input is primarily just steering, but I bet you could eliminate a step in your thinking, and just skip straight to thinking about leaning the bike into the turn and not thinking about where or how much the bars are turned
Posted by: taprider
There was one of those reverse steering bikes and a bunch of other weird bikes like a slinky bike that you could try in a ball diamond at Trout Lake Illuminares about 15 years ago.
I was able to ride the reverse steering bike by thinking only about leaning the bike and not thinking about steering.
For large cruiser motorcycles (and not MX motos), the bike is far heavier than the rider, and your input is primarily just steering, but I bet you could eliminate a step in your thinking, and just skip straight to thinking about leaning the bike into the turn and not thinking about where or how much the bars are turned
I think some/many/most??? people tend to not be active riders whether they're on a motorcycle or a bicycle - they're simply along for the ride. The difference in handling performance when one is engaged with the bike aware of how their inputs affect performance is pretty dramatic. This is probably a big part of what separates elite level riders from the average person.
Posted by: taprider
There was one of those reverse steering bikes and a bunch of other weird bikes like a slinky bike that you could try in a ball diamond at Trout Lake Illuminares about 15 years ago.
maybe it was the same guy's bike (how many can there be out there??) but i tried a reverse steer bike (that swung by the shop) a couple decades ago. my brain couldn't make a go of it in the short time i tried.
and yeah, re: motos - nothing like flogging a sportbike through tight twisties to give you an appreciation of the function of countersteering.
Posted by: syncro
Pop a wheelie and do a catwalk/manual.
Total boss move right there... It makes me wonder how this would affect the balance point. I don't know about you but I am terrible at at manuals/wheelies and really have to use my legs, hips, and the bar to keep my balance side to side. Some people can do it very subtly, not me.
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