Fox DHX

Or perhaps I was referring to the OEM side of things - SC went with the 5th, Giant and Specialized with the Swingers? Turner went to Romic (i'll assume we can agree Dave Turner knows something if not shit loads about suspension and tech more than me, or you and you). Catch up in Marketing, yes. Does that mean its safe to assume some of their technology is or was lagging? I will state my opinion as yes.

Asking for clarity or re-reading a post before you dig into someone on how to post an opinion on some new gear would be nice. And since I'm naturally argumentative Corey :D How can you be so sure about Fox's offerings for 05? Maybe the DHX will be the Gremlin of mtb shocks. Oh wait, that was the RC :eek:

And besides Corey, your response wasnt in even essay form :P

Originally posted by Freestyler
Welcome to the world of performace sports equipment. high prices if you demand high quality. here's an "old" saying. Cheap, Light, Strong; pick 2. you cant have all three./QUOTE]

i'll take cheap and light like my women :eek:

**

In response to you. one begs to ask the question, if a certian product is that bad in your opinion, why is it still around? Speaking from working at a few bike shops… most riders base opinions from friends, mags, and a few bad experiences. which is not a bad thing but only thinking like that is very narrow and somewhat ignorant. like everything… you never notice or hear about something until it stops working. seldom do riders techincally know what is going on and why something failed. having that knowledge means you probably have a so-called "engineering" degree, or years of experience in dealing with that product. because i honestly dont know, let me know why Fox sucks so much yet people continue to buy their products.

Cheers

**

Look at the overall market domination Fox has in general terms of itself. If you started out with a company from the get go and establish a relationship with mfg's which are usually bound by contracts agreements or SLA's (service level agreements) then you got yourself a pretty good busines model to expand on.

In my previous post, I said Fox was playing catch up in marketing. Now I'll go into the tech side with the simpleness of there design. They could've easily made the shock bodies larger to accomadate a larger shock shaft, resevoir's bodies, better seals. How come all of these are found on [HTML_REMOVED]my favorite and trusty[HTML_REMOVED] avalanche? And yet in my opinion and memory, it was only until Avalanche made an appearance that the Vanilla DH showed up? Coincidental, me thinks.

I remember a simliar threads not to long ago Corey where we covered similar, if not exact topics. And I do beleive you even mentioned the Vanilla DH was scrapped due to inherent flaws. I may be wrong; I feel I could be right.

After reading some other posts in this thread, even if Fox isnt playing catch up, they've lost some of its customer base for some reason.

Now, you have to admit they're playing catch up with that.

Originally posted by statix
**to play devil's advocate….

i would say Fox IS playing "catch up", at least from a marketing perspective.

if you want to be a truely innovative company you won't be the last one on the block to come out with new technology to match your competitors.

at least on the Shore, Fox could have avoided a TON of bashing and criticism by devloping something better than the Vanilla shock, much earlier. granted the shore may be a small percentage of Fox's market, but still, from a user's perspective they DO appear to be behind the times and slow. so this would give the perception that they are now desperately trying to catch up.

on the engineering side, I agree 100% though. Fox being a fairly big company, I'm gonna assume much bigger than most other mtb shock makers… they can obviously put more time and money into the R[HTML_REMOVED]D for this shock… so yeah we'll have to wait and see what it's like. though i would be seriously suprised if it didn't at least match the performance of it's main competitors. **

Damn it.. I just read this quote.. sounds a lot like mine… :beer:

well except for the last part about it matchin the competitors

Originally posted by m33p
**Not bitter, I just see mtb'ing and it's "engineers" as morons who can't make what people NEED OR WANT without rediculous prices.

Props to:
Banshee(partial)
.243
Roox
Norco
Marz

5 companies that know there shit, regardless of misshaps and new products. **

Part of the problem is the difference between the size of the group that needs or wants what you do (and many on this board), and what the vast majority of mtn bikers do. Freeriding may be gaining momentum in the media, and in the way companies market themselves, and therefore the products they produce. However sales aren't really skyrocketing in the bike market these days exept in…wait for it…ROAD, where there is some growth.

On top of that, the needs and wants of Shore riders are so specialized, they're like a niche within a niche. Sure, a lot of other mtn bikers may think that Shore riders, trails, and bikes are cool and drool-worthy, but when push comes to shove, the people that "need or want" any of this stuff is a tiny minority as a percentage of the rest of the world mtb market.

Hence, high prices, and not as much selection as you'd like to see.

Before labelling bike engneers as morons, I'd be curious to know how you would change the way they approach things while still operating a profitable business.

Easy to criticize, much harder to propose viable solutions. But if you have 'em, let's hear 'em, I think a lot of people would be interested to join that discussion.

Too many of the topics on this board are "product x sucks" without the "but if they did this, it would be better". It's important to share what doen't work, but the more educated everyone becomes as a consumer, the more likely it is that your input may be incorporated into a product design one day.

By the way, does everyone here know how Eric Fox got started in the biz? By sending notes off to companies telling them what was wrong with their products, why it was wrong, an dhow to fix it. And a lot of the time, they hired him to help them. Food for thought. But it all started with solutions.

Good post Pete.

Here is something I find interesting (unrelated to Pete's contribution)…

So many people talk of how much better the 5th and Swinger are over the Fox offerings (and I am not commenting on my feelings there, because they are irrelevant… ).

Out of all of you who have nothing but good things about your 5th to talk about, and who slam other shocks …I have a question …

How is your 5th set up? How many turns do you run for your high speed compression? Low speed compression? Where have you set your air volume adjustment at? How many psi are you running in it? How many turns of rebound do you run?

My hypothesis is that only a small percentage of people can answer all of those questions. The ones who actually use all that technology probably can, but I am willing to bet a lot of the people running these units simply could not explain how they have set it up and why. That being the case, what grounds do you use to say they are "the best"?

For those that can, good on you. I think that shows you have an understanding of the product and are able to use it as intended. I think that makes your feedback and constructive criticism on other shocks far more valid.

But, like I said, I bet half of the people couldn't tell you.

Try asking guys on the trail for fun. It is shocking how many of the guys will tell you how unreal it is…but when you ask them how they have it set up, they have nothing to say. "Oh man, I haven't touched it since I got it" "my mechanic set it up and I have left it alone ever since" etc. It will suprise you how few people actually are able to take advantage of the shock, and how many base their opinion and conversation based on the marketing of the product.

:)

What do I think? (if you care) For a person like me who is a tech head, it is an attractive technology that makes sense to me (the SPV aspect and extra adjustments).

I'm sure their are some that have little knowledge on how to set up their product, but I'm sure they didn't go out and spend the money based soley on marketing. It most likely came OEM. I'm sure the rest of us have the knowledge and interest to read a manual and ask the right questions :rolleyes:

The funny thing is that these 'unknowledgeables' will still claim that there 5th or Swinger out performs their Fox RC. Pretty impressive for a maladjusted shock :D

Maybe the 05 Fox DHX will have a better manual, be more reliable, be easier to set up and come with it's own tech :)

All and all I am very excited to check out Fox's new offering since it's the tech I'm interested in. Guess we'll have to all wait until 2005…. or not.

Des

Originally posted by Desloc
I'm sure their are some that have little knowledge on how to set up their product, but I'm sure they didn't go out and spend the money based soley on marketing. It most likely came OEM. I'm sure the rest of us have the knowledge and interest to read a manual and ask the right questions :rolleyes:

Thats exactly what I am trying to say.

The truth is (based on my experience asking people about their rides) not a lot of people do what you and I see as common sense, and take the time to read that manual and understand the shock.

Lots of people just ride it and don't bother tuning at all. That's all I am saying. These people are not the ones people should be listening to when they preach about how grand the thing is…because their is little validity in their comments if they don't take time to understand what they preach.

Obviously you are not one of those peeps (and they are not bad peeps!! ), and you understand whats up with them. Probably why you don't get what I was trying to say, because that which seems unthinkable for some is just like breathing for guys who like and understand the adjustments the tech affords. :)

Originally posted by [email protected]
…and you understand whats up with them. Probably why you don't get what I was trying to say, because that which seems unthinkable for some is just like breathing for guys who like and understand the adjustments the tech affords. :)

Just because I understand the tech doesn't mean I expect other too, hence I understand what some may deem 'unthinkable' and 'get what you are trying to say' ;)

A poor teacher has unreasonable expectations of his/hers students if he/she expects them to understand at his/hers level. A good teacher remembers their first day in class and nourishes their students without expectation, but with patients and an understanding of where his/her students are at.

Maybe it's the teachers that are failing, not the riders.

Des

Originally posted by Desloc
**Just because I understand the tech doesn't mean I expect other too, hence I understand what some may deem 'unthinkable' and 'get what you are trying to say' ;)

A poor teacher has unreasonable expectations of his/hers students if he/she expects them to understand at his/hers level. A good teacher remembers their first day in class and nourishes their students without expectation, but with patients and an understanding of where his/her students are at.

Maybe it's the teachers that are failing, not the riders.

Des **

I don't expect anyone too either. That would be ridiculous, and I never said I did. :)

What I am saying, is that when someone is telling people "how much better product x is over product y" that their advice is not nearly as credible as it would be if it were coming from somebody who understands the products they are comparing.

I think you really misunderstood me based on your above comments. I really hope you don't think that is what I am suggesting, because believe me it isn't.

The gear board is supposed to give good tips and advice. What I am saying is that when someone posts "oh that one is junk, you gotta get this one its way better" and they can't explain why that is, that their contribution is not helping anyone at all.

I'll take a custom shim'ed Fox over anything else anyday.

Just my experience though.

I'm liking the Fox with Propedal. The Propedal definitely works. Also, the 2004 Vanilla seems to ramp up better. Maybe it's just me?

I tried a 2003 Fox Vanilla RC and a 2003 5th Element on a Cove Peeler, and the 5th felt much better to me. Way less pedal induced bob, ramps up better, feels better on small bumps, and the rebound feels much smoother. The Fox RC, even on a Specialized Big Hit, felt like the oil was really having a hard time moving during the rebound stage; the sucking noise was quite loud. The oil probably looked like a capuccino.

nope…I don't think you're off base at all Switch. The "old" RC's (haven't ridden the propedal) are ass once you've been on the other shocks.

Excellent posts. ( aShogunNamedMarcus, pete, corey )
i believe my fox question is answered now. nice to see the quality input here.

Cheers

I read about two posts and gave up.

All i can say is Avalanche's Main Page should read: "All your base are belong to us."