Door to trail riders - tell me how you've accommodated these crazy steep seat angles please

Posted by: Endur-Bro

It's wild that I'm outta shape and my tech climb times are apparently faster on a G16 29er @ 175/170mm travel than with my Gen 1 Surface.

Have a look at hill climbing dirtbikes to see that long CS/RC result in a better climbing bike.  I'll wait for the haters to tell me mtn biking exists in an alternate universe where physics doesn't

Do you ride dirt bikes? Cuz it sounds like you don't. No offense. 

No hate, but it's totally different. With a dirt bike you have what is almost like unlimited, instant power literally at your fingertips, it doesn't get tired, you have tonnes of momentum, and spinning is a secondary concern.  You can apply that power INDEPENDENTLY of how you position your body. Your limiting factor is looping out, not power, not traction(not really anyways because you can just pin it and the tire will keep scratching, not like on a pedal bike where a spin out basically means say goodbye to all momentum), yeah you need to modulate the throttle, but yeah, totally different. 

I'm not saying it's not working for you, but the dirt bike comparison is just totally invalid, sorry.

Posted by: Endur-Bro

Have a look at hill climbing dirtbikes to see that long CS/RC result in a better climbing bike. I'll wait for the haters to tell me mtn biking exists in an alternate universe where physics doesn't

You know I don't understand why you feel like there has to be one solution that is going to work best for everyone everywhere? If something works well for you that's great. I'm 100% happy for you. Really I am.

I can assure you that same thing doesn't work for me. I've spent my $$ and tried a bunch of different bikes for many many rides to come to the conclusion about what works for me. Believe me I wanted to longer CS/steep STAs to make my trail experience better. They didn't.

Nobody is being a "hater" we are just talking bikes.

Posted by: Vikb

You know I don't understand why you feel like there has to be one solution that is going to work best for everyone...

Not at all trying to invalidate the type of bike and geo that you've landed on, love your blog and write ups... but that advice above could apply to you too /\

Some of what you've landed on as the bees knee's for you might be out at the edges on the bell curve, while some of the very mainstream solutions are working really well for a lot us. Some of whom might even be more experienced riders than you, and might have even done more experimenting.

Posted by: Hepcat

Not at all trying to invalidate the type of bike and geo that you've landed on, love your blog and write ups... but that advice above could apply to you too /\

I've gone out of my way to frame my posts in this thread as comments about my personal preferences and what works for me. I have not been telling other people what they should ride or that they should like what works for me. If you like something different than me that's great. I'm happy for you. I'm not really what else I can say on that front.

I was riding my 86  Marin to the bar bent forward & low, I decided the geo of this thing really sucks but i supose ymmv

This is a little left field- I’ve found that using pedaling innovations catalyst pedals effectively slackens seat tube due to how the foot is placed forward on the pedal. This review from bikepacking.com does a good job of explaining https://bikepacking.com/gear/pedaling-innovations-catalyst-review/. Edit- just went back to OP and noticed that mid-foot pedaling might not work.

Short vs long chainstays being better/worse for climbing is directly dependent on rider height. Tall rider means higher center of gravity, hence more weight on rear for a given upslope than a shorter rider would have. So for tall riders looping out while seated is usually the concern, whereas shorter riders lack of traction is the issue. Obviously that's a bit simplified, but you get the idea. Another thing to consider is how much a rider (while climbing) can shift weight forward vs rearward in or out of the saddle. From a typical neutral seated riding position (arms slightly bent) one can straighten arms to move overall cg very slightly rearward, or by bending arms more and putting your face close to the bars the overall cg is moved forward. Xc pros can do this very well of course, but I find it uncomfortable for more than a minutes or two. Everyone's neutral position is different but I'd say nearly everyone can shift weight forward more than rearward. If out of the saddle, you can put your chest or almost stomach to the bars and shift your cg dramatically forward. While out of the saddle, dropper down you can shift cg rearward, but not really in a way where you'd be able to pedal strongly.

The point I'm trying to make is that while climbing seated or standing a rider has more ability to shift weight forward than rearward. And thus for climbing traction it's better to have chainstays too short than too long. For climbing comfort longer chainstays means less need for the uncomfortable hunch forward to avoid loopout, at the expense of traction in some situations. Like anything bike geo/fit it's about balancing tradeoffs.

It is nice that more frames are varying chainstay length by size. Not that many hardtails vary tho.

Posted by: Ziggy

This is a little left field- I’ve found that using pedaling innovations catalyst pedals effectively slackens seat tube due to how the foot is placed forward on the pedal. This review from bikepacking.com does a good job of explaining https://bikepacking.com/gear/pedaling-innovations-catalyst-review/. Edit- just went back to OP and noticed that mid-foot pedaling might not work.

This is a good tip and I appreciate you referencing the OP! I do find that having a different pedal can help with comfort for sure. On the steepest bike I run the large convex shaped OneUps which really suit a more forward foot. My other concave shaped pedal the RF Atlas definitely prefer a more traditional forefoot placement. Longer or convex shaped pedals can mitigate steeper angles for sure.

However a phenomenon that until these steeper angles I had not experienced before is the occasional slipping off the pedal entirely usually this happens in slow moving situations seated when I’m tired and the front wheel drops into a hole I did not notice and the bike comes to a sudden stop. It may be the OneUps or a combination of me already being more forward and the convex shape.

I gotta wonder how much of this thread is just (old) people who can't get with new designs i have heard people on line  not get with the new designs

on another site i frequent  more or less this same thread  plays out except and those folks wana change bars

For me it was the old geo that i didnt really like but when I got on the Yeti and then the SC they just felt right so I didn't have to change anything

I think this is less age related and more about the bike industry not accommodating different bodies, styles and fitness levels. To be fair to the industry we tend to all glom on to whatever is the latest trend and they are simply meeting our demand.

what do you mean old and new designs?

in the early 1980s bikes were slack and had long chain stays, but by the late 1980s chain stays were short as possible and seat tube angles steeper

(old) people have been getting on with adapting and experimenting with new designs for a long time, and many have the experience and perception to tell if new designs are marketing BS or actual improvements

Posted by: XXX_er

I gotta wonder how much of this thread is just (old) people who can't get with new designs i have heard people on line not get with the new designs

on another site i frequent more or less this same thread plays out except and those folks wana change bars

For me it was the old geo that i didnt really like but when I got on the Yeti and then the SC they just felt right so I didn't have to change anything

Talk about blanket statements. As an older rider I have gone through at least 30 bikes in the last 40 years that have been a steady progression in geo and found not all "innovations" work for all situations. This discussion is about dealing with one of those situations that modern geo isn't optimum for so if you're happy with your Yeti and SC, though those bikes don't have particularly steep STA's, I would suggest go ride. And learn to spell.

Posted by: taprider

what do you mean old and new designs?

in the early 1980s bikes were slack and had long chain stays, but by the late 1980s chain stays were short as possible and seat tube angles steeper

(old) people have been getting on with adapting and experimenting with new designs for a long time, and many have the experience and perception to tell if new designs are marketing BS or actual improvements

Bingo. There are two types of efficiency that we have to deal with too. Efficiency of the rider to make power and efficiency of the position to not loop out. If a rider has to wiggle and squirm to keep the bike going the right way, that’s not efficient. But if the rider is sitting bolt upright, as steep seat angles tend to encourage, that’s harder to make power. We need to find that balance. In the late 80s and early 90s we had long stems "to keep weight on the front wheel" which was wrong. We were never trying to put weight on the front wheel. It was about putting the centre of mass ahead of the rear contact patch so we didn’t loop out. Then we all put shorter stems on to not go over the bars as we rode steeper and steeper lines. Then we realized we’re riding dinky little bikes. Many started riding larger sized bikes to get the correct body position for good power output and not loop out but with a short stem. Stack and Reach became a thing and we were told if long reach was good, longer reach was better. And of course we must have really short chain stays because playful. 

Remember when 29er started making waves? They climb better for mysterious reasons apparently. Longer fucking chain stays climb better. It’s quite simple. Hill climb motorcycles are different. It’s not reasonable to make the front end longer but it’s cheap and easy to bolt on a longer swing arm. But the physics is the same. Weight in front of the rear wheel makes to bike stay on the ground better. Watch my xc World Cup or impossible climb and you see riders get low. That’s to make better power.

well the thread was titled " tell me how you accomadated these crazy steep seat angles ? " so somebody isnt down with the new tech

I just got on the bike and it instantly felt good