ebikes on the Shore

Posted by: martin

And to reply to your comment saying that "This almost sounds like people complaining that they're having to share space with other people who are doing things differently. Oh the humanity...", I don't know how cross country skiers would appreciate having snowmobiles driving besides them on the same trails, or baseball players playing on a tennis court at the same time, or F1 cars rolling besides Nascar racers, etc... 

In my opinion, when the original sport's experience gets less and less interesting because of new and unnecessary nuisances (like having to pull over to let ebikes pass by all the time - in the future, getting passed by a 40kmh SurRon, riding more rutted trails because ebikes can ride the same trails 3-5x times instead of 1, paying more access fees to cover for trail maintenance, policy enforcements and other upcharges caused by the new electric bikes category), then I think that it's not a question of being open to others, but more of how can we keep our sport's experience like it has always been. 

Not sure your examples are a fair comparison and your experience is different than mine, but that could be due to location though. I get that ebikes don't mesh with your (or others) vision of what cycling is, they don't mesh with mine either,  but I can't quite agree with the notion that the mtb experience has to be the same for everyone. My general sentiment is that if people riding bikes are willing to play by the same rules of good trail use etiquette that have been well established, they they should be allowed to enjoy a somewhat similar experience.

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: martin

And to reply to your comment saying that "This almost sounds like people complaining that they're having to share space with other people who are doing things differently. Oh the humanity...", I don't know how cross country skiers would appreciate having snowmobiles driving besides them on the same trails, or baseball players playing on a tennis court at the same time, or F1 cars rolling besides Nascar racers, etc... 

In my opinion, when the original sport's experience gets less and less interesting because of new and unnecessary nuisances (like having to pull over to let ebikes pass by all the time - in the future, getting passed by a 40kmh SurRon, riding more rutted trails because ebikes can ride the same trails 3-5x times instead of 1, paying more access fees to cover for trail maintenance, policy enforcements and other upcharges caused by the new electric bikes category), then I think that it's not a question of being open to others, but more of how can we keep our sport's experience like it has always been. 

Not sure your examples are a fair comparison and your experience is different than mine, but that could be due to location though. I get that ebikes don't mesh with your (or others) vision of what cycling is, they don't mesh with mine either,  but I can't quite agree with the notion that the mtb experience has to be the same for everyone. My general sentiment is that if people riding bikes are willing to play by the same rules of good trail use etiquette that have been well established, they they should be allowed to enjoy a somewhat similar experience.

I suspect the experience of ebikes + mtb bikes out east would be different than ours out west. If I get passed by an ebike on a climb, I usually go on to pass them on the descent (2 interactions as my climb is an hour as is my descent). 

Out east, climbs are much shorter and more frequent, 5 mins up/5 mins down/repeat. If I had an ebike pass me on a climb, I would pass them on the descent, then repeat. They also have way more population and way fewer trails. Toronto has the population of all of bc and probably has less riding trails than squamish. If I think vancouvers bike paths are getting crazy, I can't imagine what Toronto is like these days. Not sure it's so much "doom and gloom" as realism.

Posted by: RAHrider

I suspect the experience of ebikes + mtb bikes out east would be different than ours out west. If I get passed by an ebike on a climb, I usually go on to pass them on the descent (2 interactions as my climb is an hour as is my descent). 

Out east, climbs are much shorter and more frequent, 5 mins up/5 mins down/repeat. If I had an ebike pass me on a climb, I would pass them on the descent, then repeat. They also have way more population and way fewer trails. Toronto has the population of all of bc and probably has less riding trails than squamish. If I think vancouvers bike paths are getting crazy, I can't imagine what Toronto is like these days. Not sure it's so much "doom and gloom" as realism.

Yeah, I think location, and more importantly the local riding culture, will have a big impact on the adoption and use of ebikes.

Posted by: syncro

This almost sounds like people complaining that they're having to share space with other people who are doing things differently. Oh the humanity. In a city the size of Vancouver we can't all have our own private little piece of paradise, so we have to figure out someway of getting along. So what's the solution? Maybe some sort of mandatory licensing for ebikes  so people learn the rules of operating an ebike and are checked on having the skill to operate it safely?

Yes partly... it would be a start to not lump all electric two wheeled vehicle into one class. A 200lb e-scooter doing 32kph is very different from a bike with a bit of assist to get up the hill. 

A standard bicycle with pedalling-required assist that tops out at 15kph is a fantastic vehicle that lowers a lot of barriers for people who want to ride but are intimidated by distance or elevation. Love the cargo bikes as car replacements for urban dwellers. 

E-scooter and E-motorcycles are not bicycles, let's stop calling them that and unlock the silly power and speed restrictions to make them actual viable road-going vehicles ( so many are already being used on the roads). Yes with license and insurance.

Posted by: Squint

Posted by: syncro

E-scooter and E-motorcycles are not bicycles, let's stop calling them that and unlock the silly power and speed restrictions to make them actual viable road-going vehicles ( so many are already being used on the roads). Yes with license and insurance.

Sure.. As soon as they pull those fake ass cranksets off them and stop pretending they are bicycle, thats the whole scam. Currently no one here in BC can't insure one of these emoto-moped-whatever-you-call-it.

Posted by: syncro

This almost sounds like people complaining that they're having to share space with other people who are doing things in a way that may harm the experience they’ve worked hard to create, legitimize and protect.

FIFY

Posted by: tashi

Posted by: syncro

This almost sounds like people complaining that they're having to share space with other people who are doing things in a way that may harm the experience they’ve worked hard to create, legitimize and protect.

FIFY

Oh really?

Do you honestly think things on the trails here are anywhere close to being shut down or affected because of ebikes? I wonder how hard some of the people complaining have worked to create, legitimize and protect the trails? I know there are some people who have worked very hard (harder than anyone else really) that aren't fans of ebikes on trails, but there are also people who are ok with them.

There are for sure some legitimate concerns when it comes to ebikes on the trails that should be addressed, and unfortunately the governing/regulating bodies have been a bit slow to react considering they've been around for a while. However, it might just be that ebikes haven't hit a critical mass yet. Does anyone have any stats on  the percentage of ebikes on the trails? It strikes me as odd that a lot of the arguments/fear being used in the complaints against ebikes are the same/similar to the ones that the hiking community used when mtb'ing first took off. I just find the overall negative reactions against ebikes curious and it seems there are never any sort of solutions/ideas suggested in terms of how to handle the current and potential issues that exist. There is a big gulf between what we see/think/feel about ebike use on the trails (and streets) compared to what governing/regulating bodies perceive as happening and maybe they either don't see or don't understand the potential scope of the problem.

At the end of the day, as long as people are using good trail etiquette and doing something to support the work of trail organizations then it should not matter how they are recreating on the trails.

Mountain biking Vs hikers was largely solved by mountain bikers building our own trails. These days for the most part hikers use 'our' trails rather than the other way around. Maybe in the future there will be 'E-specific' climbs that provide an interesting challenge for E-bikers, which is currently what is happening with them riding up downhill only trails....

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Mountain biking Vs hikers was largely solved by mountain bikers building our own trails. These days for the most part hikers use 'our' trails rather than the other way around. Maybe in the future there will be 'E-specific' climbs that provide an interesting challenge for E-bikers, which is currently what is happening with them riding up downhill only trails....

Yup, I'm aware that mtb'ers built out most f the trail network and that hikers use mtb trails. One thing that seems to get lost a lot in this conversation is that in BC most trails are multi-use and multi-direction. How many downhill only trails exist locally on the Shore? There are some that are downhill primary and a few that are uphill only, but I'm not sure if there are any downhill only trails. Sure there are downhill oriented trails where it's not smart depending on time of day to climb up them, but the reality is on pretty much any trail out there you should be aware that you might run into trail traffic coming the other way. Your post kind of points to the larger issue tho, the 'us' vs 'them' attitude. The land we use is public land, so it's a shared resource available to all. However, I think there is a need and space for some designated trails, including variations of hike/bike/ebike and uphill/downhill. Of course signage is only good if people pay attention to it. The million dollar question is how to solve that issue and I think this where the land managers need to step up with some sort of on-trail education system using something like park rangers that can be out on the trails to talk to people about proper trail etiquette.

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Mountain biking Vs hikers was largely solved by mountain bikers building our own trails. These days for the most part hikers use 'our' trails rather than the other way around. Maybe in the future there will be 'E-specific' climbs that provide an interesting challenge for E-bikers, which is currently what is happening with them riding up downhill only trails....

Is this really an issue or just a white rhino? I personally have never seen any ebikers climbing downhill tracks.

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Mountain biking Vs hikers was largely solved by mountain bikers building our own trails. These days for the most part hikers use 'our' trails rather than the other way around. Maybe in the future there will be 'E-specific' climbs that provide an interesting challenge for E-bikers, which is currently what is happening with them riding up downhill only trails....

Is this really an issue or just a white rhino? I personally have never seen any ebikers climbing downhill tracks.

I've seen ebikers climbing up John Deer and Severed at Seymour more than a couple of times.

Posted by: syncro

The land we use is public land, so it's a shared resource available to all. However, I think there is a need and space for some designated trails, including variations of hike/bike/ebike and uphill/downhill. Of course signage is only good if people pay attention to it. The million dollar question is how to solve that issue and I think this where the land managers need to step up with some sort of on-trail education system using something like park rangers that can be out on the trails to talk to people about proper trail etiquette.

I was impressed w/the Vedder Mtn. system and the way people, even those of an age group one would expect to abuse it, courteously did the right thing even to the point of slowing down while passing me on their dirt bikes as I was grinding up the FSR.

Of course there's probably a much smaller user pool of peeps riding out there as opposed to here on the shore.

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

Mountain biking Vs hikers was largely solved by mountain bikers building our own trails. These days for the most part hikers use 'our' trails rather than the other way around. Maybe in the future there will be 'E-specific' climbs that provide an interesting challenge for E-bikers, which is currently what is happening with them riding up downhill only trails....

Is this really an issue or just a white rhino? I personally have never seen any ebikers climbing downhill tracks.

I used to climb Lower Oil Can, original Expresso and Asian Adonis on a meat powered bike. But with the new climbing trails, that doesn't happen anymore.  Although, I still climb Corkscrew at off-peak times (only 2 dabs away from cleaning it) because other than the road, it is the only climbable trail for me on a meat powered bike (I am not getting an ebike just so I can climb Incline).  I also take the original A Lines going up No Quarter rather than the new ride-arounds .

So maybe with ebikers looking for uphill technical trails, the ebikers will help me clean up some more Black Diamond uphill trails for both ebikers and other meat powered bikers like me (although the uphills would have to be janky so that the uphills would still need skill and not just a more powerful motor, and with so many new loamers straight down the fall line, it might be too late).

Ebikes or meat bikes, I think climbing corkscrew is a pretty dumb thing to do, considering it's popularity and status as downhill-only.