ebikes on the Shore

Funny how concerns from a few years back about emtbs such as climbing trail/access road conflict with normal bikers/hikers and more importantly blurring of lines on what an emtb is are actually coming to fruition in the Sea to Sky despite being dismissed as "whataboutism" but emtb advocates the entire time. I'm sure the industry pushing these rigs will help solve this problem through advocacy and funding non-profit trail associations right?

Here's an example from the UK where the risk around trail access is exponentially higher than here:

So you think using an example of guys on throttle controlled electric motorcycles - that's what those Suron's are - is equivalent to people using ebikes? I didn't watch 100% of the vid but I didn't see these guys acting like jerks towards any of the other trail users. I fully agree on using good trail etiquette and that electric motorcycles have no place on mtb trails, but let's at least use good arguments if we're going to talk about the problems with ebikes. That video isn't one.

That's a good point. What is an effective way to get the point across to fuck off when you inevitably bump into someone roosting class 2 & 3's on bicycle trails? 

In that video is the interaction you'd expect, the cyclist tells them "you'll be crushed if the ranger catches you riding those up here", the Surrons guy yells after him "yeah, well they'll have to catch us first! Hahaha". Then heads out for a lap destroying the lips on the jumps.

Posted by: syncro

So you think using an example of guys on throttle controlled electric motorcycles - that's what those Suron's are - is equivalent to people using ebikes? I didn't watch 100% of the vid but I didn't see these guys acting like jerks towards any of the other trail users. I fully agree on using good trail etiquette and that electric motorcycles have no place on mtb trails, but let's at least use good arguments if we're going to talk about the problems with ebikes. That video isn't one.

Well, given that this is exactly what is happening in squamish, I think the video provides a visual for people to understand what is out there that some people consider "bicycles"

I couldn't give a crap what ebikers call their contraptions, but I can see trail organizations quickly banning anything with a motor if ebikers don't take the initiative and tidy up their denominations.  Obviously this group of "cyclists" thought their motorbikes were "bikes". I doubt many of the other trail users would agree. Those guys weren't pricks and they slowed down for walkers but never the less, those things do not belong on the same trails as bikes and hikers. Motocross trails would be appropriate.

My point is that we shouldn't be lumping in dirt bikes - which is what those Suron's are, with regular emtb's. In Squamish there are a fair number of trails that are open to all users, including gas powered trials bikes so I don't know if that's the problem or if people on dirt bikes are crossing over to mtb trails. If there's a concern about dirt bikes on mtb trails then it should be taken up with the appropriate land manager so they can deal with it. If people don't think the land manager is enforcing the rules then raise more noise - squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Posted by: syncro

My point is that we shouldn't be lumping in dirt bikes - which is what those Suron's are, with regular emtb's. In Squamish there are a fair number of trails that are open to all users, including gas powered trials bikes so I don't know if that's the problem or if people on dirt bikes are crossing over to mtb trails. If there's a concern about dirt bikes on mtb trails then it should be taken up with the appropriate land manager so they can deal with it. If people don't think the land manager is enforcing the rules then raise more noise - squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I agree with everything you say. That being said, hikers and bikers aren't going to want to go around trying to figure out what sort of motorized contraption idiots are riding. Moto trials riders have worked hard to maintain their relationships with other trail riders. Emtb riders relationship with other trail users is a work in progress but based on this thread there has been substantial good and bad experiences. Idiots riding motorcycles that look sort of like bikes on multiuse trails is going to degrade that relationship. 

My point is that the onus is on etmb users to maintain their access to trails, not the other way around. Watching these knuckleheads in the video makes me feel confident that these contraptions aren't going to degrade mtb access but certainly will degrade motorized access (emtb). As a mountain biker, this video actually makes me feel more confident in the security of our trail access.

What I really don't understand is why emtb users don't just want a throttle? How annoying that you have to spin pedals to engage your motor. I kind of wonder how long emtb will last before everyone is just getting something with pegs instead of pedals, a bigger motor and battery.

Posted by: RAHrider

I agree with everything you say. That being said, hikers and bikers aren't going to want to go around trying to figure out what sort of motorized contraption idiots are riding. Moto trials riders have worked hard to maintain their relationships with other trail riders. Emtb riders relationship with other trail users is a work in progress but based on this thread there has been substantial good and bad experiences. Idiots riding motorcycles that look sort of like bikes on multiuse trails is going to degrade that relationship. 

My point is that the onus is on etmb users to maintain their access to trails, not the other way around. Watching these knuckleheads in the video makes me feel confident that these contraptions aren't going to degrade mtb access but certainly will degrade motorized access (emtb). As a mountain biker, this video actually makes me feel more confident in the security of our trail access.

What I really don't understand is why emtb users don't just want a throttle? How annoying that you have to spin pedals to engage your motor. I kind of wonder how long emtb will last before everyone is just getting something with pegs instead of pedals, a bigger motor and battery.

Yeah that's a fair point and I agree that they need to step up to protect their own interests. However I also think that the rest of the mtb community shouldn't be running to stick a knife in the back of legitimate ebikers that are playing by the rules. Those Suron/throttle controlled twits can get fucked for sure tho.

Rightly or wrongly, the overall impression I get from this thread, is that eMTB riders are or should be considered douche bags until they prove themselves innocent?   How this is to be done, seems unclear.

Presumably all or most eMTB riders are dirt bags because whoever stoops to riding an eMTB are entitled, weak willed individuals who can't or won't man up and earn their ride and want to rub everyone else's noses in the dirt while they destroy the very trails that only real riders care for and protect?

There also appears to be a missing acknowledgement (by some, but not all) that any group of people (whether they be mountain bikers or not) usually have a bell curve of sinners and saints, and it is always the assholes, who give any group a bad reputation.  Also, that there are likely to be good and bad in both groups of powered and non-powered riders in equivalent proportion.   

Don't have a motor on that bike; well go right ahead and keep roosting and skidding the fuck out of those berms and Strava the hell out of Bobsled and run my novice friend off the trail, at least you don't ride an eMTB. 

That may sound a little harsh, however, as a recent returnee to "mountain stunt biking" and a very new eMTB rider, a lot of the comments appear to give that impression.

Also, I'm not sure why there should be a special onus on riders like myself to maintain access to trails, that would be any different from other riders, and what would that actually entail?

I think you summed it up pretty well knnn. I also think if you went on a hiking website, you would find similar sentiments there about mountain bikers - and id agree. That's why there are threads on here encouraging mountain bikers not to be entitled pricks when they interact with other trail users. That's also why I slow down or stop when I interact with a hiker on a multiuse trail.  We also have threads on not braiding trails and not being a strava douche. Users here have varying views on these topics - That's the point of a forum. 

That being said, you are an ebiker posting in a cycling forum. If I went as a cyclist and started posting in hiking forums, I'd probably find many hikers who weren't all that crazy about mountainbikers. That's not to say all mountainbikers are douchebags, but I suspect their perspective would be, as you put it bikers "are or should be considered douche bags until they prove themselves innocent"

I have thought a lot about ebikes as they seem to irritate me and I have tried to figure out why. There seem to be two things that get under my skin about them. 

#1 they want to be considered just another form of cycling. The bikes are marketed as the "evolution of cycling." Sorry, I just don't agree. It's motorized. The fact that it is a shitty little motor and the throttle is built into the pedals doesn't make it a bike. A simple mod, and you are riding what was in the video posted. That being said, I'm happy ebikers like riding their motorized bikes, but it's not a bicycle. 

#2 because ebikers want everyone to consider them cyclists, they also want to be entitled to all the trail/path access cyclists have. I don't agree with this either. We have all been worried that the trail access that has be so hard to earn will be ruined by adding motorized bikes, especially as they get more powerful or as people mod them. What this video demonstrated to me is that as motorized bikes are added to trails, mountain bikers probably won't be penalized, it will actually be the ebiker with the wimpy motor. If we see lots of electric motor contraptions all over hiking and biking trails, the knee jerk reaction will likely be - no motors; period.

My comment was simply that it is not my responsibility as a cyclist to protect the trail use rights of ebikes. The people who should be worried about bigger and more powerful ebikes/emotorcycles coming along are riders like you who want access to non-motorized trails because you opted for a motorized contraption that has a wimpy motor and the throttle in the pedals. If electric motorized contraptions become a bigger problem, no one is going to care what type of motor you have, they will just end up banning motors I suspect. 

Your last comment was that you didn't think there should be a special onus on you as an ebiker to maintain access to the trails. I find that weird. Mountain bikers have only gotten access to where it is through hard work and promoting the activity. Ebikers will have to do the same for themselves. In the early days of ebikes (that we are still in) trail access is not a huge issue for you all because the ebikes are only starting to get powerful and the numbers are low. As numbers increase and especially the number of people riding things that resemble your ebike but are way more powerful and have a throttle on the handlebar, you may find that your access becomes in question. Same thing for city paths and bike lanes.

Your activity is in its infancy and where it ends up is anyone's guess. The only way it ends up somewhere you want it to will be through advocacy, and the onus is on riders like you if you want a say in it.

Posted by: knnn

Also, I'm not sure why there should be a special onus on riders like myself to maintain access to trails, that would be any different from other riders, and what would that actually entail?

It's not so much that the onus is on ebikers to maintain access to trails, but there are two distinct points in regards to that. The first is that all riders should be giving back to the trails in some manner - in your case I think most people here are aware that you've put in more than your fair share of time. The second is that if ebikers don't want to lose their access to the trails then it is incumbent upon them to police themselves and make sure as a group that they are not being perceived as a nuisance by most other trail users. If ebike numbers go up noticeably and as a group their behaviour tends to be disruptive then a lot of other trail users may begin to complain which could affect your access. I don't have a problem sharing the trails with ebikers as long as they display good etiquette, but if the majority of interactions I have with ebikers tends towards the negative then my view about sharing the trails with them will probably change. 

So far I think what's lacking is pr/info by land owners and trail org's on the acceptable use of ebikes on the trail network.

Some well though out and respectful dialogue here, thanks.

I guess where I am coming from is that I have ridden mountain bikes for almost 20 years and still feel that I am a cyclist. I don't feel that the addition of an electric motor to provide an assist (not a throttle), changes the nature of the beast to any significant degree; for example compared to someone who decides to buy a hyper light bike to sprint up hills or a rider who shuttles a mountain. Therefore, I don't see how the addition of the electrical assist would change or increase my obligations in any way that would not already apply to all responsible riders.

Rightly or wrongly I feel there is a perception that if you ride an eMTB you are less likely to give back to the trails or more likely to act in an irresponsible manner, which from my personal perspective rankles a little, but I understand it and the concerns expressed here are not unreasonable. I guess only time will tell if it turns out to be true and we as a sub set of riders would then have to take responsibility of our actions. However, considering we are talking about changing human behavior, I recognize that the prognosis might not be good. :/

@tashi; I was just trying to make the point (poorly) that acting in an irresponsible manner is not the exclusive domain of the eMTB crowd.

PS Odd, I wonder why my post count is only 9 and it says I joined in 2017?

Posted by: tashi

Yeah, riding moto on bike trails totally isn’t the end game here:

“Yes, Boxxbike has pedals and yes it is an off-road enduro moped that looks like a mountain electric bike or downhill special. Thanks to this appearance, there is no problem with ordinary hikers, dog walkers, runners, horseback riders...”

“With this new Boxxbike, we open up the possibility of riding in open terrain, both on an enduro or cross motorcycle, as well as on single cycling trails.”

And their videos are all of a dude ripping it up with motos then seamlessly hopping onto mountain bike trails, no pedaling involved.

But sure, let’s keep pretending that these are going to stay mountain bikes with a little helper motor. Gotta GROW THE SPORT RIGHT?

http://boxxbike.com/

Wow what a junky POS. The non-committal person who buys this, you already know what he's like. Imagine comparing this thing side by side with the KTM and thinking yeah the crap e-bike is the way to go to save $2k. 

https://www.nsnews.com/local-news/north-shore-rescue-pulls-unconscious-73-year-old-e-biker-from-the-bush-3755992

There are consequences to removing barriers