ebikes on the Shore

I was reading about a new Bosch motor for ebikes that has anti tamper software to prevent someone from increasing the speed cutoff. If that is the norm to force conformity with regulations that is a good thing. When I think about places like North Van and Squamish, I think those places are already pretty crowded and growth is not necessarily a good thing. In skiing I see all these high speed quad and six pack chair lifts (and even 8 seaters some places) reducing lift lines while increasing uphill capacity creating crowded runs. That does not improve skiing in my opinion. Would something similar happen in mountain biking if more people can ride because of motor assist?

I finally got to try out an ebike, and holy shit they are fun. Making trails that are usually a grind, more fun and flowy...loved it. I don't think one will be in my stable soon...but it's not something I am going to rule out...a good compliment to my Rootdown for sure.

I think that with the limitations put into place right now, I have no issues with pedalecs. As long as these battery/motor limitations stay as they are things should be okay...they need to work on making the motor and software as unhackable. Having an ebike makes really no difference on the downhills other than the weight...so keeping the limit where it is now (or even lower) would be great.

I am getting tired of the haters using the same arguments as the trail users used to use against MTBs back in the '80s and '90s....c'mon come up with something original people! :P

Posted by: Kenny

If it was as simple as two user groups trying to figure out how to get along, majority wins, I'd agree. Sorry though sync, from what I've seen the loudest ebike advocates are individuals that are financially incentivized to act as such, so there is not the level of parity between user groups that your post seems to imply. There is too much money involved to be able to reduce the solution to "oh you should just advocate and if you're in the majority you'll get your way".

Call it paranoid or carried away to think that CEO's and MBAs are not frothing at the mouth to lobby for continuous "progress" in legislation, as these machine creep past the $14k mark and potential revenue stream skyrockets, or that this stacks the deck well against Joe trail user, but I believe it's naive to think otherwise. Maybe I need to put down the tinfoil hat, but I don't think so...

Note that none of that is to say we should not be advocating and being proactive in our communities and the decisions that get made, that needs to happen regardless, on the contrary, this post and my post prior are meant to reinforce the fact that it needs to happen more so.

My post was primarily directed at your comment about them being faster, more powerful and "literally motorbikes". For that to happen government would need to roll back the measures currently in place WRT power and speed restrictions and I highly doubt that is going to happen. As for advocacy, I bring the point up partially to see who steps up and says they are doing something in that regard. It's not necessarily about majority wins, but it as about making your voice heard by the people who will actually make the decisions on ebike use on the trails.

I agree that bike co's have a vested interest in seeing these things go big, and to be honest I think they will simply because people have fun on them. That is going to be the #1 thing that drives their success.  Just ask yourself why people ride? It's the same reason as a lot of other things that people do - because it's fun and they enjoy it. Add in what shouldn't be a newsflash, that more riders enjoy the down more than the up, and it makes sense that people will like these things. Also consider that people will typically put their own needs and wants ahead of the greater good - just look at the number of people who ride compared to those who volunteer - and it's no surprise that ebikes are gaining in popularity and will continue to do so. Will they become the dominant player in the market tho? Who knows, but for now there is at least an opportunity to get some rules around mtn ebikes established when it comes to their use on the trails and it's probably a good idea to do that sooner than later.

I tried this once before on it's own thread, but after my last post I'll put it out there one more time. Is there any appetite for putting together some sort of wishlist or desired set of regulations for ebikes and sending that in a letter campaign to the requisite land managers or even presenting it at a council meeting? Like someone else said a few pages back this thread and topic is pretty much at a stalemate and the same arguments more or less just keep getting re-hashed.

baring that - one last shot at comedic relief for this thread

Posted by: tashi

My regulation wish list: no motors on trails currently designated as “non motorized” trails.

ok that's a start. so here's an honest question, would you want that apply to up as well as down or just down? the reason i ask is that i see the down differential as negligible between the two types. on the up it makes much more of a difference and definitely see a need for some sort of rules. 

and also to your point, if you are going to split the difference solely at motorized vs non-motorized are you ok with not being able to ride your pedal bike on the new trails that may possibly be created for ebikes?

Posted by: tashi

Ups and downs. 

Yes, if that’s what they want and that’s the rule that they get in place, sure.

Ok that’s fair. For the ups tho, what about using something like the road up Fromme or say Old Buck on Seymour but no to things like the No Quarter climb or Penny Lane and GSM?

Maybe I don’t see it as such a simple or black/white issue as you. I’ll guess other people don’t either. FWIW people who refuse any sort of compromise often tend to end up disappointed.

Well I’m trying to get a sense of what people are willing to compromise on. Personally I think allowing use on access routes like Old Buck and Mtn Hwy but not climbing single track routes is a good place to start.

2000 Watts? I guess they're one upping each other already?

https://electrek-co.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/electrek.co/2019/06/21/luna-ludicruous-2000-watt-x-1-fs-enduro-electric-bike/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Felectrek.co%2F2019%2F06%2F21%2Fluna-ludicruous-2000-watt-x-1-fs-enduro-electric-bike%2F

Self policing via the ebike crowd will work out. Look how it works in every other situation.

Posted by: tashi

From that review:

“The one other thing I’d like to see on this bike is a hand throttle for the 2,000 W model. At that point, you’d basically have a light electric dirt bike.”

But no, these things will stay in their tidy regulated categories, no one is going to want to hack them. 

Everything will be fine.

But think about how much FUN it would be. You just haven't tried one yet!

Saw some guy riding his emoped up to dales the other day. He went up the same speed he went down and there was a rooster tail behind him all the way up! oh no, these things don't tear up trails. It had to be at least 70lbs. I hope Mountain bikers smarten up and call a spade a spade. Emopeds are not bikes and should be categorized as motorized vehicles. They should not have unbridled access to all our hard earned mountain bike networks.

Add e-bikes to these....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=33&v=lzLYpH_ZI80

Mountain bikers are viewed more favorably than say motorized recreationists, though with the growing popularity and speed of electric mountain bikes that distinction may soon be reduced.

No shit, eh?

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/06/24/how-mountain-bikes-threaten-wilderness/

“New mountain bike [trail] construction will likely result in permanent habitat fragmentation. Habitat fragmentation impedes the movement of wildlife across landscapes. Looped trails may create islands of habitat that may be avoided entirely by wildlife.”

Posted by: RAHrider

Saw some guy riding his emoped up to dales the other day. He went up the same speed he went down and there was a rooster tail behind him all the way up! oh no, these things don't tear up trails. It had to be at least 70lbs. I hope Mountain bikers smarten up and call a spade a spade. Emopeds are not bikes and should be categorized as motorized vehicles. They should not have unbridled access to all our hard earned mountain bike networks.

But but... that's not a class 1 ebike! They will be regulated by the government so you'll never see modded/throttle emopeds on mountain bike trails! This is just alarmism and besides have you tried one? They are FUN!

Kinda funny how pre-ebike you never really saw dirtbikes abusing non-motorized trails on the shore (besides the odd kid on Mountain Highway) and yet here we are.