ebikes on the Shore

Posted by: Ddean

to test a hypothesis you test extremes. 

But I also fear that they will be abused and I fear the negative consequences for those good people who ride MTBs and those good people who ride eMTBs.

Well no, you need make a test that is at least somewhat similar to the question/topic at hand.

I think fear is a lot of what's driving the anti-ebike sentiment - fears based on assumptions that have little to no proof to back them up and are often based on extremes. Basing an argument on extremes is not a good way to either prove or disprove a theory or idea.

Its exactly similar - does more power to the ground result in more wear? Up the power a lot and do the test. That's exactly how you test these things. Accelerated environment.

But regardless, there will be no testing. Ive been through this before and feel that its naïve to believe that anyone will be looking for proper data.

What happened to me before was in the late 80's/early 90's, where I rode environmentalist said "MTBs will cause increased wear on trails, phosphorous from soil will find its way into the nearby lakes and OVERNIGHT no biking signs went up - effectively reducing my legal riding to ZERO. This happened overnight. Police would sit in parking lots at trailheads and ticket anyone coming out on a bike. They would walk in the woods and ticket anyone on a bike. My daylight riding went to ZERO and the only time I could ride was in the middle of the night when there was no enforcement.

That is what happened to me. There will be no testing - if the powers that be determine that eMTBs are bad for the environment and they don't feel that they can enforce and they lump eMTBs with MTBs, the only places we might be legally able to ride is at places like Fromme and Squamish and MTB centers. Most of my riding is not at a MTB center so, as Ive learned to be, I'm fearful. As people in Marin county what their thoughts are.

It's similar in  you have two modes of transport with two wheels and your question of does more power to the ground equal more wear is valid,  but the two are not similar enough in terms of power output - that's a critical factor. Testing extremes is only worthwhile if you have no idea of outcomes. So I think it's fair to say that a high power output device that is throttle controlled could place significant wear on a trail due to wheel slippage as in your 400cc dirt bike example. Now ask yourself, how similar is that to a pedelec? Does a pedelec have the same potential to rip up dirt as the dirt bike? I don't think it's necessary to test that extreme nor valid to even make that comparison. 

Your example is the classic case of people using extremes and fear to rationalize a poor decision based on little to no evidence. I'd suggest that we don't fall into the same trap.

I hear you and you're 100% correct in how this discussion should be approached. 

I wish that you were the one making decisions on these things.

Posted by: Ddean

I hear you and you're 100% correct in how this discussion should be approached. 

I wish that you were the one making decisions on these things.

ouch, my head just hit the ceiling. 

I like to think the people making the decisions are using similar reasoning, but as other have brought up enforcement of the rules is a legitimate concern. From that end, it's easier to either turn a blind eye till the problem reaches a critical mass or just take a blanket approach and ban them altogether and not have to worry about sorting out all the little details. I always come back to the idea that I like to believe that most people will ride responsibly and the number of people that will cause problems won't be so much as to cause the whole works to fall apart.

Ive learned the hard way that the lowest common denominator usually wins.

Do you think perhaps that NSMBA is in a bit of a sticky situation not wanting to bite the hand that feeds, so to speak? A few of the big shops on the shore have been selling and demoing them for a couple years, Rocky guys noddle around on them unapologetically.  Tough spot to be in, lots of angles to satisfy.

I rode an e-bike today. 20+km/h up a slightly inclined logging road in the middle of the cassette and "Tour" mode.   

What a short fucking Reach on that thing LOL

Posted by: awesterner

Do you think perhaps that NSMBA is in a bit of a sticky situation not wanting to bite the hand that feeds, so to speak? A few of the big shops on the shore have been selling and demoing them for a couple years, Rocky guys noddle around on them unapologetically.  Tough spot to be in, lots of angles to satisfy.

I saw a couple unpainted Rocky ebikes on Forever After last week. I assume they were scouting for BCBR route or something. Chuckled at how they were unpainted though.

Posted by: JBV

which bike? did you like the rest of the ride?

Cube something or other with a 36 up front. Ironically those bikes seem to be fitted for people either built like a cube, or that's their bike fitting philosophy; "SBG; Square Body Geometry" I only rode it on a gravel road.  I'd be interested in taking out one of the Devinci e-bikes or a Nicolai e-boxx bike with modern geo numbers but the chances of that  happening are slim.

I have enough pedal powered bicycles now that I can't see myself needing to purchase one with a large battery attached to it.  If I need to cover more ground I'll get a KTM woods bike or a trials bike.

Posted by: Ddean

Its exactly similar - does more power to the ground result in more wear? Up the power a lot and do the test. That's exactly how you test these things. Accelerated environment.

This is typically not how accelerated testing works. You can’t just keep cranking up the intensity of a test and expect to get good results. 

In this case, just cranking up the power output to the rear wheel will not get valuable results because there is a non-linear relationship between power to the rear wheel and trail wear. All data is garbage once you start tearing up the trail by spinning the wheel.

Posted by: Endur-Bro

Posted by: JBV

I have enough pedal powered bicycles now that I can't see myself needing to purchase one with a large battery attached to it.  If I need to cover more ground I'll get a KTM woods bike or a trials bike.

Exactly. Electric trials for short jaunts are already here.

Saw a guy on an ebike absolutely flying up Mountain Highway last night between the 5th and 6th switchback. Must have been doing 30 km/h or more and totally silent. He was pedaling hard but man I was surprised by the speed. Fit looking dude as well. Not really much danger on a fire road but made me think what about a double track/single track? It reminded me of dirtbikes passing you in Squamish on fire roads (where they have every right to be) except it's silent whereas you hear the dirtbike coming a mile away so you can move over. Again, nothing about this specific rider put me off, just food for thought.

With that climbing speed you could put in 3 laps up to 7th from the parking lot after work no problem.

how has that bot not been nuked already?