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ebikes on the Shore

May 19, 2019, 9:15 a.m.
Posts: 3293
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: FLATCH

Tempting or not, good sight lines or not, acoustic or e bike, climbing an uphill trail is WRONG. PERIOD. that again comes down to education, consideration and respect. 

Don't forget that unless specifically signed "Downhill Only" or "Hiking/Equestrian Only" all trails are considered multi-use and multi-directional so people should be prepared to see different types of traffic in different directions on pretty much any trail out there. 

That said I agree it makes sense in many, but not all situations, that climbing up a trail typically used for descending is not the best thing. I would add that if one is going to climb a trail typically used for descending that they be hyper aware and ready to get off the trail, particularly on blind corners and/or where sight lines are poor.

May 19, 2019, 9:22 a.m.
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: FLATCH

Tempting or not, good sight lines or not, acoustic or e bike, climbing an uphill trail is WRONG. PERIOD. that again comes down to education, consideration and respect. 

Don't forget that unless specifically signed "Downhill Only" or "Hiking/Equestrian Only" all trails are considered multi-use and multi-directional so people should be prepared to see different types of traffic in different directions on pretty much any trail out there. 

That said I agree it makes sense in many, but not all situations, that climbing up a trail typically used for descending is not the best thing. I would add that if one is going to climb a trail typically used for descending that they be hyper aware and ready to get off the trail, particularly on blind corners and/or where sight lines are poor.

syncro, i always appreciate your level headed view points, but riding up an obvious downhill trail is just plain wrong for anybody. perhaps downhill trails could be better marked in heavily used regions.

May 19, 2019, 9:24 a.m.
Posts: 570
Joined: Feb. 16, 2013

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: mammal

Flatch, with regards to noobs... They rent the thinks all over the place. I've seen plenty of beginners on Fromme with rocky hard tail models and norona peddles them below the uni in squamish. If you think they're mostly experienced veterans on these things you need to get out more.

exactly, beginners, who would benefit from education. maybe you could help with that, or continue with a narrow minded point of view.

I'd chat with any trail user about etiquette if in the right scenario. Never said anything to the contrary. '

Its a simple fact that traditionally, beginners cut their teeth on lower, easier trails where one can usually expect riders with less experience. When you' ve got first timer tourists sinking ruts and blowing corners off of Fromme climb trail on a rainy November night, is it my obligation to tell them everything they should consider, that they're not? After they've had their hour or so of fun, should I post beside the trail waitingfor the rest of the tourists, to make sure everyone has a clue? This should be the job of the place they rented or purchase the motorcycles, but that hasn't and isn't happening, especially since the gov is releasing policy that makes people think they don't have that responsibility.

May 19, 2019, 9:34 a.m.
Posts: 570
Joined: Feb. 16, 2013

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: FLATCH

again it comes down to education, consideration and respect.

trail orgs will need to get on board and accept e bikes or the issue will become very draining. i believe there will be a fair number of paying members who are or will be riding e bikes. i already see it.

e bikes may not be for everyone, but they are for many.

It's not about trail orgs "needing to get on board", it's about them needing to make the right decisions based on what they can manage and how. If in 4 years, 1/3 of the users are on ebikes, they'll need to consider themselves on the hook for 1/3 more maintenance due to the increase in average mileage for those users. Ask most orgs if they've got the capacity to keep their existing trail networks in reasonable condition in those circumstances... Probably not.

As for the climb/descent thing, sure being curtious with people is great, but it's one thing to stop and chat about etiquette when someone is cruising down a climb trail (good site lines, low technicality, lower speeds). It's another thing all together when you've got people cruising up a feature you literally can barely stop on once committed, and/or navigating at high speeds.

trail maintenance has always been an issue but it has always progressed and will continue to. why would anybody be "cruising" down a climb trail, makes no sense.and to your last point I think I've covered that.( hikers, unleashed pets)

If you had a little experience around these things,(I ride regularly with a friend who uses one) you would understand that you can't just cruise up technical features at any kind of speed or skill.

WRT people cruising down climbers, it happens frequently, and I used that as an example of a time that's convenient to use your "education" strategy. WRT climbing up descent trails or risky feature/areas, that was specifically referring to noronas picture and comments about his epic routes. If you think some people won't be taking the quickest way to the top, where before it wasn't physically possible, you're kidding yourself.


 Last edited by: mammal on May 19, 2019, 9:37 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
May 19, 2019, 9:40 a.m.
Posts: 751
Joined: Aug. 14, 2003

Posted by: FLATCH

and 'killa, if you want to call norona out for name calling, for fuck sakes man, go back and read the whole thread. i think the scoreboard is pretty lopsided to the nays.

That's not the point I was seeking Flatch. Norona is one of best positioned people to contribute to a proper discussion of ebike use from THAT user group. I have indeed suggested he not engage in name-calling. I try to avoid stooping to that too. I honestly think that some of the nay arguments are just as garbage as some of the yay arguments. 

If I'm calling him out on anything, it's to engage in serious conversation about the specific issues that I find troublesome (stated earlier). I give zero fks about what people ride and how they get to the top. However, when I see things that either have potential to cause conflict or that imperil trail access, I (very seriously and genuinely) want all hands on board in the conversation, including Norona.  I remain interested in hearing anything he has to say about the 3 questions I posed. Filter out the nonsense and trolling, and there is occasional value in the information he provides. 

I have no interest in a public pillory for any individual here. I humbly suggest that people stick to issues that matter, and challenge others to answer. Those that want to troll will have little influence on outcomes when the province revisits their policy in 2-3 years. If anyone thinks that an online war between two polarized viewpoints is going to produce better outcomes, I think they're misguided. However, the stakes (and expectations) are higher for a person that represents brands. Nobody at Devinci or other makers would be impressed if they thought one of their rep's marketing strategies was to dismiss (and at times insult) people with genuine concerns about how to properly integrate their products into trail-use frameworks.  

Indeed, this is a 28-page thread, that has a lot of wasted words and thoughts......for what end. There is ZERO to gain in a discussion of "earning turns", who is cheating who, who is fat, who is a noob, and so forth. The discussion of ebikes needs to evolve, hopefully to a more civil conversation, and one that gets to the point. That stands for all of us, not just Norona.   Just my two bits.

May 19, 2019, 9:47 a.m.
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: cerealkilla_

Posted by: FLATCH

and 'killa, if you want to call norona out for name calling, for fuck sakes man, go back and read the whole thread. i think the scoreboard is pretty lopsided to the nays.

That's not the point I was seeking Flatch. Norona is one of best positioned people to contribute to a proper discussion of ebike use from THAT user group. I have indeed suggested he not engage in name-calling. I try to avoid stooping to that too. I honestly think that some of the nay arguments are just as garbage as some of the yay arguments. 

If I'm calling him out on anything, it's to engage in serious conversation about the specific issues that I find troublesome (stated earlier). I give zero fks about what people ride and how they get to the top. However, when I see things that either have potential to cause conflict or that imperil trail access, I (very seriously and genuinely) want all hands on board in the conversation, including Norona.  I remain interested in hearing anything he has to say about the 3 questions I posed. Filter out the nonsense and trolling, and there is occasional value in the information he provides. 

I have no interest in a public pillory for any individual here. I humbly suggest that people stick to issues that matter, and challenge others to answer. Those that want to troll will have little influence on outcomes when the province revisits their policy in 2-3 years. If anyone thinks that an online war between two polarized viewpoints is going to produce better outcomes, I think they're misguided. However, the stakes (and expectations) are higher for a person that represents brands. Nobody at Devinci or other makers would be impressed if they thought one of their rep's marketing strategies was to dismiss (and at times insult) people with genuine concerns about how to properly integrate their products into trail-use frameworks.  

Indeed, this is a 28-page thread, that has a lot of wasted words and thoughts......for what end. There is ZERO to gain in a discussion of "earning turns", who is cheating who, who is fat, who is a noob, and so forth. The discussion of ebikes needs to evolve, hopefully to a more civil conversation, and one that gets to the point. That stands for all of us, not just Norona.   Just my two bits.

One of the most reasonable posts in these 28 pages.

May 19, 2019, 9:57 a.m.
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: FLATCH

again it comes down to education, consideration and respect.

trail orgs will need to get on board and accept e bikes or the issue will become very draining. i believe there will be a fair number of paying members who are or will be riding e bikes. i already see it.

e bikes may not be for everyone, but they are for many.

It's not about trail orgs "needing to get on board", it's about them needing to make the right decisions based on what they can manage and how. If in 4 years, 1/3 of the users are on ebikes, they'll need to consider themselves on the hook for 1/3 more maintenance due to the increase in average mileage for those users. Ask most orgs if they've got the capacity to keep their existing trail networks in reasonable condition in those circumstances... Probably not.

As for the climb/descent thing, sure being curtious with people is great, but it's one thing to stop and chat about etiquette when someone is cruising down a climb trail (good site lines, low technicality, lower speeds). It's another thing all together when you've got people cruising up a feature you literally can barely stop on once committed, and/or navigating at high speeds.

trail maintenance has always been an issue but it has always progressed and will continue to. why would anybody be "cruising" down a climb trail, makes no sense.and to your last point I think I've covered that.( hikers, unleashed pets)

If you had a little experience around these things,(I ride regularly with a friend who uses one) you would understand that you can't just cruise up technical features at any kind of speed or skill.

WRT people cruising down climbers, it happens frequently, and I used that as an example of a time that's convenient to use your "education" strategy. WRT climbing up descent trails or risky feature/areas, that was specifically referring to noronas picture and comments about his epic routes. If you think some people won't be taking the quickest way to the top, where before it wasn't physically possible, you're kidding yourself.

Forgive my ignorance, maybe I’m old but I don’t know what WRT means. My points of view would also include norona. And for the most part the quickest route to the top would be boost mode on the road in most areas.

May 19, 2019, 10:26 a.m.
Posts: 570
Joined: Feb. 16, 2013

WRT = with respect to. More science/math short hand than internet short hand, but it all blends together FWIW 😉

May 19, 2019, 10:30 a.m.
Posts: 3293
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: FLATCH

syncro, i always appreciate your level headed view points, but riding up an obvious downhill trail is just plain wrong for anybody. perhaps downhill trails could be better marked in heavily used regions.

Thanks FLATCH, but I disagree with you here as it's not a black and white issue. I agree with you that there are circumstances and trails where it shouldn't be done, but you can't make a blanket statement that any trail used for going downhill should never be ridden uphill. I appreciate you used a qualifier and said "obvious" downhill trail, but what that means to you and what it means to someone else may be two very different things. 

Where the convo gets really dicey is when ebikes are added to the mix. What was once unrideable in an uphill direction is now accessible with the addition of the juice. So yeah in that respect there are situations where it becomes downright dangerous to both riders for someone to ride up a primarily downhill trail. That's part of why we need a set of rules on riding etiquette for all trail users.

May 19, 2019, 10:54 a.m.
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: mammal

Flatch, with regards to noobs... They rent the thinks all over the place. I've seen plenty of beginners on Fromme with rocky hard tail models and norona peddles them below the uni in squamish. If you think they're mostly experienced veterans on these things you need to get out more.

exactly, beginners, who would benefit from education. maybe you could help with that, or continue with a narrow minded point of view.

I'd chat with any trail user about etiquette if in the right scenario. Never said anything to the contrary. '

This should be the job of the place they rented or purchase the “motorcycles”, ( e bikes not motorcycles)but that hasn't and isn't happening, especially since the gov is releasing policy that makes people think they don't have that responsibility.

Couldn’t agree more that rental and tour companies need to stress this in the same way they stress the use of a helmet.

E bikes not motorcycles. Let’s stick to reasonable terms. And don’t belittle the conversation by calling them what they are not.

May 19, 2019, 10:57 a.m.
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: syncro

Posted by: FLATCH

syncro, i always appreciate your level headed view points, but riding up an obvious downhill trail is just plain wrong for anybody. perhaps downhill trails could be better marked in heavily used regions.

Thanks FLATCH, but I disagree with you here as it's not a black and white issue. I agree with you that there are circumstances and trails where it shouldn't be done, but you can't make a blanket statement that any trail used for going downhill should never be ridden uphill. I appreciate you used a qualifier and said "obvious" downhill trail, but what that means to you and what it means to someone else may be two very different things. 

Where the convo gets really dicey is when ebikes are added to the mix. What was once unrideable in an uphill direction is now accessible with the addition of the juice. So yeah in that respect there are situations where it becomes downright dangerous to both riders for someone to ride up a primarily downhill trail. That's part of why we need a set of rules on riding etiquette for all trail users.

No problem syncro, it’s alright to disagree, it’s how civilized folk find middle ground.

May 19, 2019, 11:21 a.m.
Posts: 3293
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: FLATCH

No problem syncro, it’s alright to disagree, it’s how civilized folk find middle ground.

yeah that's the thing, finding solutions that work for most people most of the time.

May 19, 2019, 11:54 a.m.
Posts: 570
Joined: Feb. 16, 2013

Im honestly not trying to belittle ebikes. I just think that's what they are. Motorcycles a pretty awesome, as long as they're used in the places they should. If people are offended with that term, they should probably come to terms with the different perspectives people have about this.

As for informing/educating, that needs to be done, that should also be provided by retailers. Currently nobody's taking on that responsibility.


 Last edited by: mammal on May 19, 2019, 11:55 a.m., edited 1 time in total.
May 19, 2019, 12:01 p.m.
Posts: 3293
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: mammal

Im honestly not trying to belittle ebikes. I just think that's what they are. Motorcycles a pretty awesome, as long as they're used in the places they should. If people are offended with that term, they should probably come to terms with the different perspectives people have about this.

As for informing/educating, that needs to be done, that should also be provided by retailers. Currently nobody's taking on that responsibility.

you're right thatthey both have motors, but the comparison stops there and is rather minor imo. 

consider that ebikes:

-don't have throttle control
-are speed limited
-have limited range
-have far less power a motorcycle
-need to be pedaled in order to operate

so if we're going to talk about perspectives then it's also important to make sure that all factors are being brought to the table before a perspective is developed.

May 19, 2019, 12:15 p.m.
Posts: 1756
Joined: Aug. 6, 2009

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

If E-bikes continue to get more popular (and I don't really care if they do or don't), singletrack climbs are going to get tedious fast. Having to pull over every two minutes to let by is going to be a ball-ache. You are going to get E-bikers trying to get KOMs (LOL). It wouldn't be a terrible idea where possible to route the E-bikers up access roads and leave the singletrack climbs to the acoustic (LOL) bikes. Would work pretty easily above the Uni in Squamish or Seymour.

If Old Buck and Mountain Highway were agreed upon as e-ascent routes, it would pretty much eliminate climbing conflicts on Seymour and Fromme.

I've dropped into Expresso and been surprised to meet people biking up it. Didn't notice if they were on e-bikes.

Can we all agree to stop using the term acoustic/analog bikes. There are bikes, and e-bikes.


 Last edited by: PaulB on May 19, 2019, 12:16 p.m., edited 1 time in total.

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