ebikes on the Shore

Posted by: mammal

Fantastic post cerealkilla. Unfortunately, it seems like Dave is mostly interested in replying to the "low hanging fruit" posts, and not engaging in the issues that make this topic so complex. The "Whatever makes me smile, I cover way more ground than before" standpoint is just self serving.

So killing it as a brand ambassador. Funny tho my millenial assistant at work posts pictures of her dog and has more followers than Dave does.... But hey we are all a bunch of fruit loops.. so good.

Posted by: cerealkilla_

Posted by: norona

Posted by: Ouch

I think it's critical that a decision be made either way, sooner than later. I don't think it's fair to everyone involved to let this linger on.

Already been made class 1 e-mtb are classified as mtb. 🤙

Not entirely correct. Class 1 e-mtb are classified as Class 1 e-mtb, and are thus prohibited from a limited set of riding areas such as Lord of the Squirrels, and certain private land trails managed by the Kootenay Columbia Trail Society/ KCTS (due to issues with insurance liabilities). There may be other areas added to this list as land-owners, insurance bodies, and wildlife managers take stock of emtbs and what they entail. Important to consider that it doesn't matter if these groups are correct in any assumptions they make regarding emtb, only that they have the power to influence restrictions. So I would think how you present yourself matters more than ever.

The recent decision on provincial recreation trails is a progression and really did help clarify some important issues, but there is still lots to figure out.....especially for clubs that have insurance and liability at stake. Of course, I would expect that people interested in promotion of emtbs would be very active in helping sort these things out.

As for riding UP tech trails, that sound great....assuming they are uphill tech trails. Of course, riding up downhill trails (designated as downhill primary on Section 56 permits) seems like a questionable idea, given the potential for conflict or collision with downhill riders. It is one thing for a downhill rider to see and avoid a hiker, but quite another to prepare for and avoid riders coming uphill toward them. Who gets the right of way?...the uphill emtb rider with his or her thumb on the boost button, or the downhill rider committed to their line? Surely ensuring safety and harmonious trail interactions takes precedence over espousing the virtues of a technology without consideration of the implications of its use. This (uphill downhill on the same trail) is an example. I have heard repeatedly that "emtbs are mtbs" yet at the same time they can be used in very different ways, have very different capabilities, and are assigned a distinct classification by the province that "acoustic" mtbs do not share. There is an established flow of traffic that has thus far served our trails and users well, and if that is to be upended by introduction of a new classification of vehicle, it should be discussed.

I will note that neither of the mentioned points aim to belittle emtbs or those that ride them, and are not calling for restrictions. Instead, they are simply what myself, and apparently some others see as legitimate concerns that should be addressed in order to maintain harmonious trails and access. I am really interested in hearing some good ideas and input on these, and less interested in more marketing of all that is great and rad.

I would think that the most vocal of the emtb promoters would have some thoughtful ideas for these matters, and would want to avoid stooping to engage others in name-calling. I mean, it is only going to be harder to win over either customers or allies by dismissing concerns as "the same fruit loops on here wasting time at work making up the dumbest shit imaginable" while not contributing to a thoughtful conversation about legitimate concerns. So I pose it to you Norona, three questions:

1) How do you think we should we manage the intersection of uphill emtb traffic and downhill (emtb and mtb) traffic on downhill primary trails. By this, I mean trails that ordinarily, the vast majority of people would not ride up, but which become suddenly climbable with the addition of a battery and motor?

2) Are you, or any sellers or makers of emtbs making progress with or contributing to the discussions with the insurance companies and private landowners who have concerns about emtbs? Clearly we don't want such liabilities hanging over the heads of our clubs or the security of our trail access, and clarification would likely lead to more successful integration and ensured access. For example, KCTS is in a real pickle with the recent provincial decision, and want to take steps to integrate ebikes for all their positives, but remain hamstrung by insurance and liability impasses. Do you have thoughts on this?

3) What is your analysis of the recent provincial decision on recreation trails? Specifically, do you have any thoughts on challenges associated with enforcement of appropriate types of equipment and trail access (pg 10 on the policy)... What do you think needs to happen (and what needs to be avoided) during the stated "test period" of 2018 to 2021 (pg 11) for this policy to roll into an enduring state of trail access that works for everyone?

Personally, I like the policy, but I note it remains wide open for significant policy adjustment depending on how things roll for the next few years. I also think it misses a few things (such as point #1).

Thanks for the reply and explanation, you make some valid points/questions as well.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but when I see very healthy people zip by me on their ebikes, the first thought that comes to my mind, is we live in a society that wants instant gratification without having to work for it.......

so if the battery on an e bike poses a fire risk then conventional thinking would say no smart phones,bike lights or camera gear either. what about chain saws? a much larger risk.

as far as noobs getting in over their heads, hikers get in over their heads all the time. does that mean we should ban sneakers and hiking boots? how about those stupid sticks too.

to the point of trail intersections, if i witnessed an e bike user heading up a downhill trail, i would take the time to "educate" that rider just the same as i would if it were any other trail user displaying bad behavior.

really it's pretty simple, a climbing trail is for climbing and a downhill trail is for going downhill.

one of the things that bug me here are most of the arguments are about noobs or tourists, when the fact of the matter is most e bikers will be people from the existing pool of riders who already know the rules. how many new to the sport are going to, or even be able to lay down 8 to 14k on a bike. how many new riders are truly going to seek out the far off or the serious trails. did you as a new rider? i know i didn't.

again it comes down to education, consideration and respect.

trail orgs will need to get on board and accept e bikes or the issue will become very draining. i believe there will be a fair number of paying members who are or will be riding e bikes. i already see it.

e bikes may not be for everyone, but they are for many.

and 'killa, if you want to call norona out for name calling, for fuck sakes man, go back and read the whole thread. i think the scoreboard is pretty lopsided to the nays.

If one's life is based around promoting one's self and trying to obtain cheap product / telling everyone else to buy it, one should be able to take a bit of a ribbing though ;) 

"really it's pretty simple, a climbing trail is for climbing and a downhill trail is for going downhill. "

Tell that to your E-bike Overlord. And to be fair, it'd be really tempting to see what an E-bike could do up hill, ride up slabs etc. But it's not very clever unless sight lines are really good. 

If E-bikes continue to get more popular (and I don't really care if they do or don't), singletrack climbs are going to get tedious fast. Having to pull over every two minutes to let by is going to be a ball-ache. You are going to get E-bikers trying to get KOMs (LOL). It wouldn't be a terrible idea where possible to route the E-bikers up access roads and leave the singletrack climbs to the acoustic (LOL) bikes. Would work pretty easily above the Uni in Squamish or Seymour. 

Anyway, I'm off to build trail while Norona is banging out another 40Km ride which his huge rucksack looking like a freerider from 2001 ;)

I sure as well won’t be breaking my climbing rhythm for someone with a motor to go by.

Flatch, with regards to noobs... They rent the thinks all over the place. I've seen plenty of beginners on Fromme with rocky hard tail models and norona peddles them below the uni in squamish. If you think they're mostly experienced veterans on these things you need to get out more.

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

If one's life is based around promoting one's self and trying to obtain cheap product / telling everyone else to buy it, one should be able to take a bit of a ribbing though ;) 

"really it's pretty simple, a climbing trail is for climbing and a downhill trail is for going downhill. "

Tell that to your E-bike Overlord. And to be fair, it'd be really tempting to see what an E-bike could do up hill, ride up slabs etc. But it's not very clever unless sight lines are really good. 

If E-bikes continue to get more popular (and I don't really care if they do or don't), singletrack climbs are going to get tedious fast. Having to pull over every two minutes to let by is going to be a ball-ache. You are going to get E-bikers trying to get KOMs (LOL). It wouldn't be a terrible idea where possible to route the E-bikers up access roads and leave the singletrack climbs to the acoustic (LOL) bikes. Would work pretty easily above the Uni in Squamish or Seymour. 

Anyway, I'm off to build trail while Norona is banging out another 40Km ride which his huge rucksack looking like a freerider from 2001 ;)

First off, I don't have an "overlord". Tempting or not, good sight lines or not, acoustic or e bike, climbing an uphill trail is WRONG. PERIOD. that again comes down to education, consideration and respect. 

i don't own nor have I ridden an e bike, but I may tomorrow or I may not. either way I will always display proper behavior and would expect nothing less from others.

education~ basic rules and etiquette. Regions and routes. bike handling and skills.

consideration~ of fellow riders, e bikes have eco mode so can easily consider the enjoyment of other riders and follow other riders until an appropriate situation to pass. basic manners.

respect~ for the rules and other users. the environment and maintenance issues.

to me all of the above must be followed by ALL of us.

Posted by: FLATCH

again it comes down to education, consideration and respect.

trail orgs will need to get on board and accept e bikes or the issue will become very draining. i believe there will be a fair number of paying members who are or will be riding e bikes. i already see it.

e bikes may not be for everyone, but they are for many.

It's not about trail orgs "needing to get on board", it's about them needing to make the right decisions based on what they can manage and how. If in 4 years, 1/3 of the users are on ebikes, they'll need to consider themselves on the hook for 1/3 more maintenance due to the increase in average mileage for those users. Ask most orgs if they've got the capacity to keep their existing trail networks in reasonable condition in those circumstances... Probably not.

As for the climb/descent thing, sure being curtious with people is great, but it's one thing to stop and chat about etiquette when someone is cruising down a climb trail (good site lines, low technicality, lower speeds). It's another thing all together when you've got people cruising up a feature you literally can barely stop on once committed, and/or navigating at high speeds.

Posted by: mammal

Flatch, with regards to noobs... They rent the thinks all over the place. I've seen plenty of beginners on Fromme with rocky hard tail models and norona peddles them below the uni in squamish. If you think they're mostly experienced veterans on these things you need to get out more.

exactly, beginners, who would benefit from education. maybe you could help with that, or continue with a narrow minded point of view.

Posted by: tashi

I sure as well won’t be breaking my climbing rhythm for someone with a motor to go by.

Neither would I. 

Like has been suggested multiple times already over the past few years, rules around trail etiquette and use need to be established and part of that is signage and classification for trails. I know t's easier said than done though, particularly here on the Shore with multiple land managers to work with. On single track climbing trails I'd say pedal bikers have the ROW and ebikers should have to wait to pass at the discretion of the pedal biker or until the trail opens up enough for a safe side by side pass. On double track climbs like Fromme then there should be no issues at all, but ebikers should still call out their pass, especially if they are going by at noticeably faster speed.

Flatch, you have a nice idealistic view, but it's not reality. Some people who have been a part of this sport for years, decades even, are already doing these things just because they can. Not because they need to or don't know any better.