MEATengines 2022...

Posted by: yardrec

I think you can get a 2.6 27.5 tire in there. I’ve got 29x 2.35s on now and may just leave the rear as is and put a 29x2.6 on the front to slack it out a little bit.

Just throwing out that Chromag is having a sale on their, sweet, i40 Magna rim in 26+. Thinking of buying a pair for Clairebarian’s next hardtail because 2.6” rubber works great on i40.

Surly does the Dirt Wizard in 26x3”.

Posted by: yardrec
It’s an old straight 1.125” steerer compatible headtube, so the 1 degree isn’t really going to subtract much. 

I think you can get a 2.6 27.5 tire in there. I’ve got 29x 2.35s on now and may just leave the rear as is and put a 29x2.6 on the front to slack it out a little bit.

I like that upgrade plan - the bike will never be an enduro sled and IMO it shouldn’t try to be one. A different frame could get you that extra 10” of wheelbase but what a great baseline to keep around. I especially like the vestigial chainstay wrap and Double Mountain sticker.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Marty et al, when measuring the ESL, where on the grip are you putting the string?

Top centre? - ignores grip thickness. 

Back? - closest to the steering axis (at least - 11mm shorter ESL than bar centre). 

Somewhere else? 

I rolled my bar forward a bit yesterday for wrist / hand comfort, and now I'm going to try a bit more with a shorter stem. Measuring 65mm in from grip ends, centre top of bar gave me a ~40mm ESL with a 50mm stem. Todays test is a 35mm, and I have a 40mm for next time.

I'm measuring at 66mm from bar end on the topish centre (on the steering axis) of the grips.

I'm on a 31mm stem with 16 degree 780 bars therefore they come a long way back but can roll my 50x12 back with a 40 stem.

Posted by: Kenny

When at mach chicken with eyes watering and heart pounding, when I am standing in a neutral position on the bike I want to feel totally balanced and like everything is weighted properly just naturally, I can shift forward and load up the front wheel or shift back and loft the front wheel with equal ease and zero real conscious effort.

Kenny - 100% agree on that one.  That's what i'm after with my FS bike and have been fettling with set up to get to the point where it is nice and balanced.  I would agree that the HT is compromised but it's still fun to ride.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: yardrec

I think you can get a 2.6 27.5 tire in there. I’ve got 29x 2.35s on now and may just leave the rear as is and put a 29x2.6 on the front to slack it out a little bit.

Just throwing out that Chromag is having a sale on their, sweet, i40 Magna rim in 26+. Thinking of buying a pair for Clairebarian’s next hardtail because 2.6” rubber works great on i40.

Surly does the Dirt Wizard in 26x3”.

The only 26” bike we have left is the Big Dummy. A 3” tire on there would be aces! Trailwork time

Posted by: Blofeld

Posted by: yardrec
It’s an old straight 1.125” steerer compatible headtube, so the 1 degree isn’t really going to subtract much. 

I think you can get a 2.6 27.5 tire in there. I’ve got 29x 2.35s on now and may just leave the rear as is and put a 29x2.6 on the front to slack it out a little bit.

I like that upgrade plan - the bike will never be an enduro sled and IMO it shouldn’t try to be one. A different frame could get you that extra 10” of wheelbase but what a great baseline to keep around. I especially like the vestigial chainstay wrap and Double Mountain sticker.

It’s a nice alternative to my Chromag Rootdown with a 170 Lyrik. 

Gotta leave the chainstay wrap for geared bikepacking running a non clutched Shimano 10 speed XT derailleur. 

Next upgrade for gears would be a manual 2x with a granny on Raceface 170 cranks.

Posted by: Blofeld

This stem length and bar sweep discussion is making head spin! I’d like to go to a shorter stem to see if my lower back likes it as much as it likes shorter chainstays, but then I’d lose bar height as well as saddle to bar length.  So then I’d add a headtube spacer to compensate for the height loss and shorten things more than expected. Alt-bars could bring things back even further, except that they don’t come wider than 780mm which means the width reduction brings me further forward than expected and changes my shoulder position…negatively? This changed position could counteract the 140mm—>rigid fork conversion in terms of descending comfort (if not speed) but I’m probably going to have to temper my expectations in terms of the berms and their self-railing antics. Also confusing is why the ESL and several other parameters are measured relative to the flat ground on which mountain bikes never actually travel. Do mullet bikes need their reaches defined to their slanted wheelbase lines, and for that matter will they roll backwards if released from rest on a perfectly flat surface? 

So to make it even more confusing. Note this is just my observation.  

Last time rode either the Stylus or Wideangle was July 27th with knee surgery on the 28th.  Just rode 1.5km easy on the Wideangle as well as two more rides on it including at noon today. After all that time off didn't notice any hands or back issues. Then this afternoon decided to do the same 1.5km easy again  on the newer Stylus and noticed back was now bothering me, more strain on shoulders, and hands as well as felt like hands where lower. So that in my case means need a much higher rise bar than the mere 45mm had swapped to earlier as with all the issues no amount of twisting bars and such will correct what is really a bar height issue. Thanks bike industry for creating short head tubes with lowe to really zero rise bars that may look fashionable racer cool but really if it is causing pain and misery not cool.

Posted by: Endurimil

Last time rode either the Stylus or Wideangle was July 27th with knee surgery on the 28th.  Just rode 1.5km easy on the Wideangle as well as two more rides on it including at noon today. After all that time off didn't notice any hands or back issues. Then this afternoon decided to do the same 1.5km easy again  on the newer Stylus and noticed back was now bothering me, more strain on shoulders, and hands as well as felt like hands where lower. So that in my case means need a much higher rise bar than the mere 45mm had swapped to earlier as with all the issues no amount of twisting bars and such will correct what is really a bar height issue. Thanks bike industry for creating short head tubes with lowe to really zero rise bars that may look fashionable racer cool but really if it is causing pain and misery not cool.

I’ve been on the ProTaper 76mm riser a bunch lately - writing something about it - as part of getting my confidence back. I WISH they did a 16* version. 

It’s too bad you’re back in the center of the universe as I’d lend them to you for sure. I’ve met enough folks who finally tried a FU50 or equivalent and went “huh, this is great, I should try higher.”

Posted by: fartymarty

Posted by: velocipedestrian

I rolled my bar forward a bit yesterday for wrist / hand comfort, and now I'm going to try a bit more with a shorter stem. Measuring 65mm in from grip ends, centre top of bar gave me a ~40mm ESL with a 50mm stem. Todays test is a 35mm, and I have a 40mm for next time.

I'm measuring at 66mm from bar end on the topish centre (on the steering axis) of the grips.

I'm on a 31mm stem with 16 degree 780 bars therefore they come a long way back but can roll my 50x12 back with a 40 stem.

So, the 35mm experiment gave me an ESL of ~30mm once I'd rolled the bar a bit. Maybe a bit short for me, I tried rolling forward more but got sore hands - finding the sweet spot between preferred ESL & preferred sweep is tricky. A true flat bar where roll only changes sweep not length would be ideal, but a much taller head tube would be required. 

I'm betting the 40mm stem is going to feel the best of what I have, but Murphy means it's black and boring, while the 35 & 50 options are delightfully garish.

Posted by: Endurimil
So to make it even more confusing. Note this is just my observation.  

Last time rode either the Stylus or Wideangle was July 27th with knee surgery on the 28th.  Just rode 1.5km easy on the Wideangle as well as two more rides on it including at noon today. After all that time off didn't notice any hands or back issues. Then this afternoon decided to do the same 1.5km easy again  on the newer Stylus and noticed back was now bothering me, more strain on shoulders, and hands as well as felt like hands where lower. So that in my case means need a much higher rise bar than the mere 45mm had swapped to earlier as with all the issues no amount of twisting bars and such will correct what is really a bar height issue. Thanks bike industry for creating short head tubes with lowe to really zero rise bars that may look fashionable racer cool but really if it is causing pain and misery not cool.

I really feel what you’re saying re. the fashion vs function in this space. I don’t recall off-hand which model years your Chromags are to compare, but I had an XL Rootdown for a bit and it had a 105mm headtube. The pressure on my hands was hard to adjust to, but at least it kept some weight on the front wheel with the mega short chainstays. 🥺 Even the Atherton bike which comes in 22 sizes (!!!) doesn’t really stray much from the current vogue in terms of chainstay and headtube lengths. The handlebar rise and sweep thing has been covered above…but yeah, that too.

Best of luck with the knee recovery. I can imagine the asymmetry that injury created could lead to issues elsewhere even with perfect fit/setup, so a lot of fiddling will probably be required.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

I'm betting the 40mm stem is going to feel the best of what I have, but Murphy means it's black and boring, while the 35 & 50 options are delightfully garish.

Hahaha, it doesn’t sound like that 40mm is even worth considering! Have you considered icing your shoulders pre-ride to take up the difference???

Velo - cool on the measurements.  I've come to the conclusion that it's all quite subjective.  But it's nice to have a "number" on it for reference.

A guy I chat with on NSMB visited the Geometron guys yesterday and was asking them about it (on my behalf).  There was no fixed answer on it - even though the point where Chris Porter adjusts depending on what trails he's riding.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I’ve been on the ProTaper 76mm riser a bunch lately - writing something about it - as part of getting my confidence back. I WISH they did a 16* version. 

It’s too bad you’re back in the center of the universe as I’d lend them to you for sure. I’ve met enough folks who finally tried a FU50 or equivalent and went “huh, this is great, I should try higher.”

That reminds me I need to email Ian Ritz about that 12 and 16 degree FU50 again.

I'm back on my SQ16s and really like the extra 4 degrees from the 12s I've been on for a few years now.

Bar position has certainly been a subject of fashion over the years. In the olden days I've gone from 80's 'short' stem and riser bar which became uncool, to the completely dumb 150mm flat Syncros stem with cut down Answer Hyperlite which was good on gravel climbs but nothing else. The riser bar bike was a cheap Canadian Tire type bike (Halfords) and had relaxed geometry and long stays which was 'old fashioned'. The funny thing is, there was a steep rooty tech climb on my local hill and I could just about clean it on the cheap bike as the weight distribution was pretty good. On all my 'cool' bikes with short stays and stupid stem / bar combos I could never clean the climb as the bikes were unbalanced, and you'd just flip off the back of the bike. 

And then in recent-ish times there was the '800mm flat bar on a DH bike' fashion. What on earth was that all about? Was is a desperate attempt to get as much effective reach as possible as the bikes were so short? Or did some DH racer tell everyone to do it, and like sheep they did, like having completely horizontal brake levers now? ;) 

I haven't seen it mentioned (but could have missed it), but I think wheelbase lengths and chainstay lengths are pushing people into higher handlebars. Going back to my 80's bike, longer stays and wheelbase gives the bike a more planted feeling on the climbs, so one can get away with a higher bar for better positioning on the downs without wheelieing on the climbs. But also in order to get the front wheel off the ground with subtle body movement one needs a higher bar anyway, so it's a win / win. A higher bar also brings back a little of the 'playfulness' that has been lost with soccer pitch length bikes.