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MEATengines

Nov. 29, 2022, 5:06 a.m.
Posts: 81
Joined: Jan. 10, 2022

I wonder if drag was part of the reason that CK decide to change up those hub bearings…Perhaps they didn’t want to be ‘roasted’ by Hambini types who actually measure things. I’d hope they would revise asap if durability was not up to scratch. It’s probably a long process to get product feedback on ultra-boutique items - especially with amortization rates rising.

It seems like bricking your hub line has been a right of passage lately. Consider DT’s EXP rollout and botched heat treat in 2019, as well as Shimano’s ‘loud-Scylence’ experiment (ironically also copying a DT/King engagement ring system).

Nov. 29, 2022, 6:32 a.m.
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

I've done a lot of quality management work over the years. One interesting thing I've learned is how to look at products and improvements. If you are responsible for a product being able to carry X loads and have a service life of Y years and you design it so it can carry 1.5X loads and have a service life of 2Y years you haven't "improved" it. In fact you have missed the product requirements by a fair bit and if there are any additional costs for that you'll get some flack from your boss.

High/excellent product quality is not exceeding the product requirement it's meeting them very reliably. The one area where that is not true is cost. No company is going to set a low end limit on manufacturing costs.

Coming back to King hubs...Andrew's thinking about them as a multi-decade purchase. But, maybe [I have no data to back this up] the original purchaser of a King hub only keeps them in regular service for 3 years in most cases and then uses them sporadically for another 3 years before getting rid of them. In that case a hub that lasts 5 years of regular use might meet their customer's needs just fine. If that 5 year hub was cheaper to make than the 10-20 year hub it would be "improved" from the company's perspective without harming the majority of their customer base.

When people chat with me about hubs they are interested in cost, colour, weight, width options, brake mounting options, strength, POE, but nobody has ever asked me "Will that hub last 20 years?"

Nov. 29, 2022, 6:38 a.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

I personally think of them as a long term ‘forever’ purchase and something that “breaks-in” and gets better with age, that’s true.

But the issue here isn’t that the new ones don’t run happily for years & years with nothing but the odd service, they’ve only been on the market since ‘21. Actually, the issues I’ve personally seen have been on very low mileage units and for some riders there’s proven to be no real fix.

Nov. 29, 2022, 6:53 a.m.
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

Having problems out of the box or within a few months is definitely something King needs to sort out as a quality defect. Although once they went CL for their brake rotor mounting I stopped paying attention. So it's only an academic concern for me.

Nov. 29, 2022, 11:51 a.m.
Posts: 375
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

Posted by: grcgrc

FWIW I sent an email requesting Chromag try some alt bars as well. I love my Stooge Motos. But if Chromag were to add some colours I would be willing to lighten my wallet to add some bling to my Rootdown.

Cheers, i guess if we keep pestering them they may eventually make them.  

I emailed Hunter and they have no plans on doing a 50mm rise bar.  Even if they did the cost of shipping to UK is ~$60...

Nov. 29, 2022, 12:51 p.m.
Posts: 26
Joined: Feb. 17, 2022

They aren't mentioned much as some other options, but my Race Face vault hubs are on their third bike, one of which was killed by a dump truck, and are going strong on the original bearings. I guess we're only on the fifth year of the hub's existence, but I will be interested to see how they hold up long term.

Nov. 29, 2022, 7:17 p.m.
Posts: 346
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Does anyone else not like the friction finish on the Wolf Tooth lever? I see DH pros adding grip tape to shifters, but I've never found them slippery.

I realised the other day my dropper lever has worn a hole in my glove, enough reason to get the file out. I'm preferring the new feel, and hope my next glove will last longer. 

Nov. 29, 2022, 10:02 p.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Does anyone else not like the friction finish on the Wolf Tooth lever? I see DH pros adding grip tape to shifters, but I've never found them slippery.

I realised the other day my dropper lever has worn a hole in my glove, enough reason to get the file out. I'm preferring the new feel, and hope my next glove will last longer. 

It would be easy enough to buff smooth or pad-over. I like the ReMote but could be happy with or without texture most of the time. I have had failures to drop when my soaked-gloved thumb slipped off a wet lever but it’s never been a big deal.

My all-time favourite DOSS remote has cut-outs instead of texturing. I’d like to see more brands adopt that - and the angle + length. I’m actually surprised no one has copied the ergonomics/layout. 

Nov. 30, 2022, 1:06 a.m.
Posts: 346
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: AndrewMajor

It would be easy enough to buff smooth or pad-over. I like the ReMote but could be happy with or without texture most of the time. I have had failures to drop when my soaked-gloved thumb slipped off a wet lever but it’s never been a big deal.

My all-time favourite DOSS remote has cut-outs instead of texturing. I’d like to see more brands adopt that - and the angle + length. I’m actually surprised no one has copied the ergonomics/layout. 

It's pretty smooth now, that picture is after filing. I'm just doing it in stages since it's easier to remove than add. 

I've never used that remote, but the cutouts look good.

Nov. 30, 2022, 4:58 a.m.
Posts: 375
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

No issues with smoothe Shimano ergonomics here...

Nov. 30, 2022, 6:11 a.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: velocipedestrian

It's pretty smooth now, that picture is after filing. I'm just doing it in stages since it's easier to remove than add.

I've never used that remote, but the cutouts look good.

Certainly. Try twice, sand once, and repeat.

The DOSS remote suffers from having the cable head at the lever - or having to rig up your own pinch bolt - but otherwise, I think it's amazing. Designed and manufactured for Fox by Shimano (who's every effort at making a dropper remote for themselves, Shimano or PRO branded, king of sucks). Some folks remove the second lever (DOSS was a three-position post and that was meant to find the 1" down position quickly) but I haven't been bothered.

I did write a little something about it if you're interested. It's here.

Other configuration, with a bolt, nut and two washers:


 Last edited by: AndrewMajor on Nov. 30, 2022, 6:12 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Nov. 30, 2022, 6:55 a.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: fartymarty

No issues with smoothe Shimano ergonomics here...

I've made the same-same out of an XT shifter for a friend - cut-off lever, etc like yours - and he LOVES it. And then I became curious and rigged up one for myself using an old XTR shifter I had. Thankfully instead of going full-mod I just bent the ratchet spring out of the way because I ended up turning it back into a shifter (sitting in my bin) after a parking lot test.

The action is so nice, and you know I don't care about weight, but I found the paddle is in the wrong position. The DOSS uses ergonomics more similar to a Shimano rear shifter where the front shifter paddle is tucked up more towards the shifter body - presumably to allow much more throw. I found it wasn't great to actuate - though once it's in motion it's lovely.

Now my friend still loves his, so we did a comparison and his mutant thumbs are significantly longer than mine. Love the upcycling of dead front shifters but if anyone is thinking of doing the same I do recommend doing the temporary mod first to make certain the paddle position works for them.

------

I'm actually half thinking I should modify the ones I have and sell them as dropper post actuators. Probably worth more than they are as front shifters.


 Last edited by: AndrewMajor on Nov. 30, 2022, 6:56 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Nov. 30, 2022, 7:04 a.m.
Posts: 375
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

Andrew - it looks like the dropper lever rubs the grip flange.  If so I like it.  IMO the closer the shift / dropper levers are to the grips the better.

Nov. 30, 2022, 7:11 a.m.
Posts: 375
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

With the I Spec B mounts on Shimano brakes the shifters end up in a really nice position.  I struggled with the Formula mounts and ended up getting some 3D printed brackets.  The ones I have on atm are a bit long cf the old (but fragile and now broken) ones I had.  I have found with the new brackets I can get the shifter slammed under the grip which suits a flat brake lever style of riding (which I almost have) - i'm still playing with it tho and may get the file / sander / multitool out at some point.

I've run modded XTs on both bikes for ages and like the shape and position of the paddles.  Definitely worth playing around with if you have the time / inclination - IMO it's just a little more interesting than buying something off the shelf if you can re-purpose something.

Nov. 30, 2022, 7:39 a.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: fartymarty

IMO it's just a little more interesting than buying something off the shelf if you can re-purpose something.

Always!

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