MEATengines 2022...

Posted by: trumpstinyhands

I have 180mm drop on my hardtail but could go with 200. I've thought about it, but one of the main reasons I can see for going with a longer drop is to be able to get on the bike easily if you have to start riding in the middle of a tech / exposed section. The BB height on hardtails is lower on hardtails (or should be....) and mine is practically dragging on the ground so the above isn't an issue for me.

Once I'm on the bike, again I think the BB height helps with keeping the center of gravity low and giving the bike inherent stability so I've never felt the need for more drop.

I had a second-thoughts moment getting on my Rifty yesterday where swinging the leg over would have been easier with more drop… but when I surveyed the situation more thoughtfully I decided it was a series of rider errors that had me arrive at my precarious situation and even then there were better ways to remount. But the point is well taken re. restarts. 

I’m excited for the wet and greasy season to start so I can see how my thoughts stack you against more frightening conditions. Particularly cornering as Niels noted. I’m railing with a 170mm post right now, but a bit of green-means-go on the roots and rocks and I’ll certainly be happy to admit if I’m scrambling to pull spacers out.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

For all the folks choosing less drop than you could have, what's the preference based on?

I understand the repeated full squat getting tiring for racers, but for recreational use it seems minor. The steering with the knee works for me using the upper shin, and being able to swing my thigh over the saddle feels much better - like going back to the 410mm rigid Thomson at full slam.

Keep in mind not one to pay attention to am I "lacking" in the latest and such in things like dropper posts. But to be honest there is no real answer as you have seen. Depending on one's riding style and how their body works while on the bike will vary from rider to rider. And Some will feel the longer drop dropper will help them ride better while another rider will want less.

Easy answer ... shorter drop Gravity Dropper because the Reverb finally started acting up and at the time with surgery a month away at the time no point in worrying about a rush to work on it. Besides got it with the bike as part of the replacement deal so got it with the Stylus because simply opportunity was available. If didn't like it could always sell it. Other wise would have not bothered and just kept going with the Gravity Dropper. Since had swapped the posts other then needing to recall how it operates barely pay attention to the differences.

Ridden the Gravity Dropper on 4 different Chromags...2007 Chromag Stylus, 2007 Chromag Samurai, Chromag protype Wideangle so early early version, and 2020 Chromag Stylus. Haven't had any issues about it being "enough" drop. Rode the rock filled Camp Fortune on the 2007 Samurai with the Gravity Dropper and didn't notice any desire for more drop. Maybe might want more drop if moved back to BC maybe not. Though currently if given the choice of more drop with the dropper post or a Stylus with longer head tube? Longer headtube would be the choice for other reasons based around injuries and there long term effects.

And still haven't touched that Reverb...still collecting dust on the workshop floor. LOL Have a Fox fork to re-assemble first.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I had a second-thoughts moment getting on my Rifty yesterday where swinging the leg over would have been easier with more drop… but when I surveyed the situation more thoughtfully I decided it was a series of rider errors that had me arrive at my precarious situation and even then there were better ways to remount. But the point is well taken re. restarts. 

I’m excited for the wet and greasy season to start so I can see how my thoughts stack you against more frightening conditions. Particularly cornering as Niels noted. I’m railing with a 170mm post right now, but a bit of green-means-go on the roots and rocks and I’ll certainly be happy to admit if I’m scrambling to pull spacers out.

Andrew...one thing had been trying to get myself to do was more remounting on the side of the trail that was higher. Under normal conditions aka flatter trail would swing right leg over with left foot on the ground. Which is harder when the trail is lower on that side. So had started working on getting my brain to learn it is normal or at least do it with less thought. Did a similar thing years ago thing back in 2008 where got my brain to think that it is ok at times to have right foot forward instead of left foot when going over some obstacles.

MEATers - something a little off topic but relatable to the general MEAT way of thinking about things.

Bar Roll and Position...

So i'm running some 12 degree (Ergotecs - 50 and 70 rise) and 16 degree SQ Labs (High Rise) on my HT (doubles as a commuter) and FS bikes.  I have 30, 40 and 50mm stems and have been playing around with bar roll to try and centre the "contact patch of my hands" (lets call it Hand Centre for lack of a better term) through the centre of the steerer tube - my theory is that this will give a neutral steering feel*.  Currently I am taking Hand Centre at 25mm in from the ends of the bars as I think this is where my weight goes.  I'm using some string cable tied between the grips and then a 90 degree set square to align to the steerer centre.

* This came from Paul Astons G1 write up where he does something similar.

Given all of the above this takes stem length out of the equation as bars are always centred through the steerer - however the grip angle is not going to be constant.  Hence I have been playing around with varying stem lengths - but are currently on 40mm with a 12x50 bar on HT and 30mm with 16xHigh bar on FS - but have only just changed them so need to ride them to comment on how they feel.

I have had the 16 on the commuter and just changed to a 12 last week and didn't like the hand position cf the 16 as it didn't feel as natural.

I was wondering how others set up bars / roll / stem length - is there something i'm missing or am I over complicating it?

Posted by: fartymarty

I was wondering how others set up bars / roll / stem length - is there something i'm missing or am I over complicating it?

I just sit on the bike and loosen the stem slightly so I can move the bars with a bit of effort and I roll the bars back and forth with my eyes closed until they feel good. Then I tighten everything back up. On bikes where the grips have "wings" I'll do the same thing after the bar roll is set. Then I'll go for a ride and adjust again if I feel anything on the trail that motivates me to. 

On all my MTBs I'm running 31-35mm stems just because they are short and that makes the seated cockpit smaller.

My bikes have fairly flat bars so I can adjust the angle of back/up sweep without affecting the reach. The stem length is mainly determined by TT, reach & seat tube angle but I do like the center of the grips to be slightly forward of the steerer centerline.

My HT/ATB has a flat bar with 16 degrees sweep and a 60 mm stem that brings the grips about 20 mm in front of the steerer. The bars are at an even height with the saddle and the bars are rolled up for 2-3 degrees upsweep.

My AM bike with a 23 mm longer reach has 15 mm rise bars with 12 degrees sweep and 31 mm stem puts the grips at 14mm in front of the steerer. The bars are 30 mm higher than the saddle and rolled down so they are almost flat across the tops.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html?pbref=p

Is an interesting read.

I've always prioritized comfort over everything else. A few times I've got on a bike after a big change to improve ergonomics and it felt unrideable...and 3-4 rides later I was shredding as strong as before and it felt normal. Given how long bikes are these days it's not like there is much stem/bar adjustment room anyways to play with.

Posted by: fartymarty

I have 30, 40 and 50mm stems and have been playing around with bar roll to try and centre the "contact patch of my hands" (lets call it Hand Centre for lack of a better term) through the centre of the steerer tube - my theory is that this will give a neutral steering feel*. 

I’ve experimented with this a fair bit and learnt two things - I hate it when what I call the effective stem length (or hand centre) converges on zero (the “neutral” position) and I’m very sensitive to small changes in ESL. 

My Levo is about 65 deg static, under 64.5 deg at sag. My Moxie is at 63 deg static, about 65 deg at sag. Both are running 50mm stems and the same Renthal 40mm rise, 760mm wide bars (with a bit less backsweep than most). The slacker head angle (when riding) on the Levo (and the extra stability from 157mm of rear suspension and all that mass in the downtube and BB area) means I’m happy to have the bars rotated more rearward for a shorter ESL whilst when I’ve rotated the Moxie’s bars as much I’ve hated it, despite the Moxie having about an inch more reach.

I want weighting the bars (whether consciously or accidentally) to stabilise my bike and I’m happy to need to put a lot of force in to steer the bike. Also more rearward hands makes it harder to stick the front wheel on on flatter turns.

A.funks - thanks for the reply.  Where do you measure your "effective stem length" from?  Is this from the centre of grips say 66mm from the end based on a 135mm standard grip length?

Joseph - ditto on the measurement.

RC used grip centre (66mm from bar end) in his Pinkbike article which makes as much sense as any location.  This used to be my default but I moved it out as found I out more weight through the inside of my hands.  However if grip centre is used it's more consistent.

Farty-

If you really want to nerd out on this stuff check out the ebook  “Dialed” by Lee McCormack. It’s a lot of info pertaining to bike fit- much of it counter to prevailing orthodoxy. He advocates grip center aligned with steering axis ( just to condense in case you don’t want to pay for it). I tried it with mixed results- on my suspension bike with really slack head/ super high trail it felt great and I like the immediate handling it provides. On my hardtail with moderate head angle/ not super high trail it felt too twitchy. On my Jones LWB with moderate head angle/ moderate trail it feels sort of good and just a touch twitchy, this bike actually feels pretty good with grips a little behind steering axis. My takeaway is that this is a relationship with a lot of variables that no one really understands. I think at this point we are all collectively crowd sourcing the science/ data because this fit stuff seems to be low priority for most manufacturers. No one wants to invest in some serious science.

Posted by: Vikb

I've always prioritized comfort over everything else. A few times I've got on a bike after a big change to improve ergonomics and it felt unrideable...and 3-4 rides later I was shredding as strong as before and it felt normal. Given how long bikes are these days it's not like there is much stem/bar adjustment room anyways to play with.

I agree your view that comfort above everything else. Reality is I could set up my bikes using all the stuff that tells me to set it up so and so way using all sorts of algorithms and so on. Yet if after weeks of riding and it feels miserable it won't encourage me to ride the bike more. 

Myself after much tinkering in the last year have learned that between the long term effects of injuries combined with today's short head tubes as on the current edition of the Stylus need to go to a very high rise bar.

Posted by: Ziggy

Farty-

If you really want to nerd out on this stuff check out the ebook  “Dialed” by Lee McCormack. It’s a lot of info pertaining to bike fit- much of it counter to prevailing orthodoxy. He advocates grip center aligned with steering axis ( just to condense in case you don’t want to pay for it). I tried it with mixed results- on my suspension bike with really slack head/ super high trail it felt great and I like the immediate handling it provides. On my hardtail with moderate head angle/ not super high trail it felt too twitchy. On my Jones LWB with moderate head angle/ moderate trail it feels sort of good and just a touch twitchy, this bike actually feels pretty good with grips a little behind steering axis. My takeaway is that this is a relationship with a lot of variables that no one really understands. I think at this point we are all collectively crowd sourcing the science/ data because this fit stuff seems to be low priority for most manufacturers. No one wants to invest in some serious science.

Ziggy - I found https://www.pinkbike.com/u/leelikesbikes/blog/dialing-in-your-steeringhands-offset.html which also summarises that grips centred on steering axis is the sweet spot. 

I'm currently running a SHO of about +5mm so may drop it back to 0mm to see how it goes.

It's interesting it's never really mentioned.

After back to back rides with my HT and FS bikes on the same trails yesterday I'm going to fit a 40mm stem on the FS bike to bring the ESL, as RC wrote or SHO as Lee calls it to about 20mm, same as the HT as I found I was doing more minor corrections with the shorter EFS/SHO. 

Both bikes have a similar trail measurement and size/weight of front wheel so the only other variable is 150mm of rear travel effecting the geo. I run a fairly stiff spring rate and as light a damping as I can get away with so in the janky stuff it's not a stable fore and aft as I'd like sometimes.