MEATengines 2022...

Posted by: nothingfuture

Strong agree on personal preference weighing more heavily than a lot of people want to admit.

Heck, I find I use different saddle heights across many of my bikes depending (mostly?) on usage. My "gravel" bike has a slightly lower saddle height than my road bike, which is different from the fixed gear, which is different from the etc etc etc. And that puts aside the difference in height between different varieties of pedal/shoe systems.

My general rule is this: I don't comment on people's saddle height- or, for the most part, their riding position- unless I am specifically asked about it. If they're out enjoying themselves riding, I will not, under any circumstances, be the cyclist that starts giving unsolicited advice on the very personal choices they've made on their bike.

My concern (hence the article) isn’t saddles that are too low or even a bit too high versus an optimal range (that even the world’s most experienced road bike fitters don’t agree on). There’s personal preference, there’s just blissfully riding a bike not knowing what you don’t know.

[aside] I run wildly different fits (bar height relative the ground, effective top tube, etc) so I also don’t have a specific pedal to saddle number I run on all my bikes. [/aside]

My concern is folks who’ve slammed their dropper as far as it will go (max insertion or bottomed at seal) and are beyond straight legged at full extension. That’s not sub-optimal or personal preference that’s potentially causing injury. It’s also a free fix, just don’t run the saddle fully extended. I don’t know, in a one-on-one situation (not trying to embarrass or old-man-splain to anyone) I feel I have a bit of a duty of care to say something?

No different than the multiple loose lock-on grips I spot on the trail every year. Gotta say something.

Posted by: Vikb

If someone is struggling and/or uncomfortable/injured due to easily fixable issues I'll broach the subject unasked, but I'll also STFU if they don't welcome the discussion.

This is me.

Posted by: Vikb

I agree with the above ^^^, but my comment was about the fact geo chart Reach is defined by the Stack of the frame [ie. top of HT]. So you can say I like Reach 465mm, but that's meaningless without stating what Stack goes with that. Two bikes with the same Reach and significantly different Stack values can be a whole frame size apart. Hence people getting fixated on Reach alone is silly.

I agree with this 100%. Reach and stack drive me up the wall. Not only are they meaningless alone, they are non-trivial to measure so who knows what we’re actually being sold.

The Knolly reviews on Pinkbike recently were a good case study of this problem. The short stacks/headtubes seemed to boggle the reviewers.

I did like how Mike Ferrentino used wheelbase to compare different bikes in his Element review.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: Vikb

If someone is struggling and/or uncomfortable/injured due to easily fixable issues I'll broach the subject unasked, but I'll also STFU if they don't welcome the discussion.

This is me.

Same here but don't mind starting mid ride conversations about such things as saddle heights.  We're always talking about fit and set up as it's something I'm interested in and constantly tinkering with.

At least it opens the worm hole for people to go down if they want to.

Posted by: Blofeld

The Knolly reviews on Pinkbike recently were a good case study of this problem. The short stacks/headtubes seemed to boggle the reviewers.

That ^^ was a funny review. The most useful part of the article was what it said about sizing bikes. If a bike doesn't fit well there isn't that much point talking about the rest of it as the ride ends up compromised so much.

Received this message on the weekend

Harald the painter at Toxic Design Lab suffered a fire last night that gutted his shop and he is in hospital with burns on his arms trying to fight the fire

Posted by: taprider

Received this message on the weekend

Harald the painter at Toxic Design Lab suffered a fire last night that gutted his shop and he is in hospital with burns on his arms trying to fight the fire

Rumour confirmed. Harald posted he’s still hoping to get back in and that somethings are salvageable.

It’s been a tough run for Harald. More when I know more.

Posted by: Blofeld

I agree with this 100%. Reach and stack drive me up the wall. Not only are they meaningless alone, they are non-trivial to measure so who knows what we’re actually being sold.

I did like how Mike Ferrentino used wheelbase to compare different bikes in his Element review.

I like wheel base as a measurement (for a given sized rider).  As a single measurement it tells you the most about a bike.

Posted by: fartymarty

Posted by: Blofeld

I agree with this 100%. Reach and stack drive me up the wall. Not only are they meaningless alone, they are non-trivial to measure so who knows what we’re actually being sold.

I did like how Mike Ferrentino used wheelbase to compare different bikes in his Element review.

I like wheel base as a measurement (for a given sized rider). As a single measurement it tells you the most about a bike.

I think this works within a standard deviation. Like with my Rifty, before or after the -2* Angleset, I could have bought based on the wheelbase range. And could have said something about how it rides based on that number since it’s a similar front/rear bias to most rigs.

But on the Banshee Titan with a 452mm or 462mm chain stay length I think most folks looking at wheelbase would end up on a size small. With my Angleset mine was around 1280mm.

My Walt is somewhere around 1260mm. Again thanks to long stays. Based on most bike sizes/proportions it would be too large? More importantly it rides quite differently because of the balance.

If I am buying a frame online sight unseen I'll use Eff TT/STA, Reach & Stack to figure out if it fits and WB as a sanity check based on other bikes I've owned. I also now know that I should err on the side of picking the smaller of two options if I am between sizes. Keeping in mind that when the frame is actually measured geo chart numbers can be off so it's a bit of a guessing game how things will land in real life.

My last two bikes were bought sight unseen and the size chosen by the geo chart. Reach mattered a bit to me, but the most important thing for me was also the effective top tube.

I know that my ideal range is +/- 10mm from 625mm with a 40mm stem. My Meta AM has a 620mm ETT with 468mm reach 1233mm WB and my previous Rift Zone was 636mm ETT with 460mm reach and 1178mm WB.

The Rift Zone's pedaling position felt a bit long even if the reach was shorter, and the Commencal fits perfect. I don't get why people choose only with reach, but to each their own!

I also like the wholistic approach for comparing bikes with similar intentions. Although…head angle and seat angle are tough to measure properly. Chainstays, fork length and headtube (along with wheelbase) are easy to measure / harder to fake. Calculating reach from horizontal front center is one way to see how believable the posted numbers actually are. I’ve also found that correcting reach to a set headtube length is useful.

FC/RC ratio is something that I think should be used more often in reviews. Playing with adjustable stays on my bike  is huge for balance and fatigue.

To precisely measure angles, I take a side shot of my bike using my DSLR with a fixed-focal lens. The trick is to be level, centered and squared with the bike as much as possible, use a lens that doesn't have too much distortion, and not shoot it from too close to limit distortion, once again. Then I upload the picture in Camera Raw/Photohop and compare various dimensions with the longest that I am able to measure "in real life" (like wheelbase or tire diameter) to limit variances. For angles, I just convert the image to a layer, level both axles with a line, then I rotate the layer until I get the measure that I'm looking for. To measure reach, just use vertical lines and measure. Since you can zoom in as much as you like to mark the start-end points, the measures are pretty precise.

For my bike, the wheelbase, ETT and reach numbers were spot-on, but the head angle was 0,1degree slacker than what the company stated. This method is also useful to measure the "effective" seat tube angle relative to your saddle's position on the rails. I put mine quite a bit forward and I can precisely measure how steeper the number really is, which is useful to get for future reference.

That's pretty nerdy, but I like those things haha!

I just use a tape measure, a piece of string, some tape, and the Measure app on my iphone (calibrated of course). It's accurate enough for my purpose.