MEATengines 2022...

Posted by: Mic

Posted by: mrbrett

Hahaha. No thanks! The bike industry has lost the plot.

For how long have most riders who have been in the game long enough repeated that statement? It just keeps getting sillier and sillier, that is all.

Yeah it seems to me that almost all of the really experienced riders I know are less and less interested in the bleeding edge of the kit now. The mid-range is so damn good and the top end is so damn expensive and often barely better and more of a pain in the ass to live with. BITD the top end kit was the only thing that worked properly at all so if you rode hard you had to have “the best.”

Nobody I know is on Santa Cruz unless they’re a shop employee anymore either…🤔

Posted by: Vikb

The metric to look at would be the cost to get a solid bike that performs well and then the total cost to own for maintenance/service life. I'm a frame up build rider and in some ways costs have come down for great parts since I can ignore the current crop of latest tech porn and shop from a pretty great set of "obsolete" options that are priced more reasonably. I'm happy with metal frames and those prices haven't gotten particularly crazy.

What goes on with wireless shifting 15 speed carbon wunderbikes with their electronic this and Kashima that really doesn't matter to me other than to grab some popcorn and watch the shitshow that is that end of the MTB market develop.

As for reasonably priced, not-bleeding-edge great parts, I'm always really happy to see things like wide-range 1x-able 10spd (and even maybe 9spd) cassettes. This was such a nice response by the industry to the large +1 cog alternatives in the early 1x days.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

The price of a Corvette only really matters to people in the market for a Corvette.

This really says it all to me.

I just can't afford the best of the best.

Even as someone who currently does / and has worked in the industry for years I've rarely had top of the line parts aside from suspension. With the money I've earned "good enough" has always been good enough for me. Maybe that says more about the pay in the bicycle industry than it does about my desired standards of parts. I dunno.

Posted by: tashi

BITD the top end kit was the only thing that worked properly at all so if you rode hard you had to have “the best.”

This is so key. I know riders who 10+ years ago found that anything below SRAM X0 didn’t last, riders 20+ years ago who always had to have “XT where it counts.” When good disc brakes became must-have purchases they were all premium products.

Put an XT shifter on a Deore M6100 (if you’re used to multi-release the Deore shifter feels cheap) and if you’re really sensitive upgrade the chain - the durability and performance are awesome.

Suspension is another one. The cheap crap is cheap, but a good mid-level fork with a lowers service is so sweet. I really don’t know that the average rider gets more out of a Lyrik Ultimate than a Yari RC.

I would say there is a disconnect between what the bike industry marketing machine is selling as "the best" bikes/parts vs. what would actually be the best for most riders when you look at the big picture of cost/performance/fun/maintenance. Although I'd prefer to spend less on my mountain bike all other things being equal if I truly believed that what passes for "the best" these days would really make my trail experience notably better I'd find a way to make it happen.

Posted by: thaaad

I just can't afford the best of the best.

It’s funny, I always go back to my lust for luxury piece. 

I can justify, in the way I roll parts from build to build, spending real money on non-wear items that make me happy. Even stuff like my NSB Overlord stem where I can’t justify it as a performance improvement (versus say a Chromag QR, high-end rear hub, top-quality headset). 

If I know I’m going to buy it once, or at least have it a long time I can justify it. Even if I don’t really need it. Amortized over a long period of time it’s not even a difference compared to cheaper stuff?! Hahaha. 

I don’t need a pair of cranks right now, and I’m happy with a pair of Aeffect R arms really when I do, but I really, really, want a pair of NSB cranks for my single speed. Lots of reasons including I bought a pair of their FreeLights getting on near 20-years ago and I like they’re making stuff in BC.

I'll just leave this here.

And to be honest despite the new Chromag Stylus with updated parts. Would be just as happy not as updated parts. First to get rid off was that pain in the ass Sram Dub crank and BB that was a pain to remove when bearings died finally.

Posted by: Vikb

The metric to look at would be the cost to get a solid bike that performs well and then the total cost to own for maintenance/service life. I'm a frame up build rider and in some ways costs have come down for great parts since I can ignore the current crop of latest tech porn and shop from a pretty great set of "obsolete" options that are priced more reasonably. I'm happy with metal frames and those prices haven't gotten particularly crazy.

What goes on with wireless shifting 15 speed carbon wunderbikes with their electronic this and Kashima that really doesn't matter to me other than to grab some popcorn and watch the shitshow that is that end of the MTB market develop.

Vik, let us not forget if you know what your looking for you can find parts still with lots of mileage left riders are willing to part with so they can get the newest shiny part like say cranks.

Since we are talking newest and greatest.

Long before the current stash bike tools in various nooks, crannies, and such of your bike. I present the originals.... don't mind the seat collar. But everything else predates current options. 

And stole this vintage Mt Zefal from my brother from my brother. Still works just found it in a drawer of the workshop.

The internals still intact and pumps up a tube though a wee bit of stiction as has been sitting for a while.

Posted by: Endurimil

Vik, let us not forget if you know what your looking for you can find parts still with lots of mileage left riders are willing to part with so they can get the newest shiny part like say cranks.

If I was trying to measure the affordability of mountain biking I would start with the cost of a complete new bike that met a reasonable set of criteria for performance/fun/maintenance. The sort of thing where any person willing to look at some websites and read some reviews could identify and purchase. I'd also calculate the cost to maintain that bike each year.

If we wanted to go further I'd look at the possibilities for buying stuff more a la carte. I'd still stick to new or lightly used or moved over from a previous bike with a service to freshen it up. This is still fairly accessible to a lot of people with a little bit more research/effort.

For the purposes of a Cost of Mountain Biking Index [CMBI] I'd leave it at that since it covers most of the potential people that are going to ride mountain bikes. That said as you rightly point out there are many more ways to ride bikes/parts at lower/no cost. However, these approaches require more time, effort and knowledge than most people will be able to deploy in the pursuit of a bike to ride.

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: Endurimil

Vik, let us not forget if you know what your looking for you can find parts still with lots of mileage left riders are willing to part with so they can get the newest shiny part like say cranks.

If I was trying to measure the affordability of mountain biking I would start with the cost of a complete new bike that met a reasonable set of criteria for performance/fun/maintenance. The sort of thing where any person willing to look at some websites and read some reviews could identify and purchase. I'd also calculate the cost to maintain that bike each year.

If we wanted to go further I'd look at the possibilities for buying stuff more a la carte. I'd still stick to new or lightly used or moved over from a previous bike with a service to freshen it up. This is still fairly accessible to a lot of people with a little bit more research/effort.

For the purposes of a Cost of Mountain Biking Index [CMBI] I'd leave it at that since it covers most of the potential people that are going to ride mountain bikes. That said as you rightly point out there are many more ways to ride bikes/parts at lower/no cost. However, these approaches require more time, effort and knowledge than most people will be able to deploy in the pursuit of a bike to ride.

Vik, if that is the basis then add in geographical location. Moving to Ontario in 2002 was revealing how fortunate riders in Vancouver as an example are. There  was and/or is Sports Junkies, Cheapskates, and what ever else exists now. Hell Our Community Bikes used parts and such bins are vastly superior to what saw in the few looked into in Toronto. Every trip back to visit parents requires trip to Our Community Bikes and every time fly back with stuff wouldn't find in Ontario versions seen to date. 

The dirtbag part of getting parts and such second hand. Well alot of that learned and now ingrained habit can thank parents and the double standards ways.

With DTC brands and mail order options I think the cost to buy a new mountain bike will be similar in most places in Canada...perhaps the far north excluded. As I noted in my post above I wouldn't try and assess CMBI using much in the way of used parts/bike nerd hacks since they require a bunch of time/energy/specialist knowledge that would exclude most bike shoppers.

If you are the kind of person that can spot a rebuildable set of brakes being thrown out and rescue them with some DIY TLC them for a small fraction of their MSRP that's rad, but you are not swimming in the main part of the MTB pool. And of course living someplace with a lot of mountain bikers offers more opportunity for cost effective bike hacks downstream of people buying new at full MSRP.

Am I remembering correctly of a MEATengines post during peak of bike part shortages about the rarity of SRAM self extracting crank caps? Last weekend I went out for a little hike to scout out snowmelting progress on the most popular trail near me, and lo and behold the one piece of trail litter I discovered was a SRAM Dub self extracting cap.

Posted by: ThadTheRad

Am I remembering correctly of a MEATengines post during peak of bike part shortages about the rarity of SRAM self extracting crank caps? Last weekend I went out for a little hike to scout out snowmelting progress on the most popular trail near me, and lo and behold the one piece of trail litter I discovered was a SRAM Dub self extracting cap.

HA! Yes, Don't Cap Yourself.

Turns out our friend Will up at Republic had hoarded them all up like toilet paper. He sent me a photo of the nice pile of them.