MEATengines 2022...

That Unicorn Wanted article hits way too close to home right now...

I was a stay at home dad when Covid hit. Due to the desperation of my wife's job being heavily impacted by Covid we decided I had to go back to work and we would work kind of opposite schedules to take care of the kiddo and manage part time daycare costs.

I recently (within the last 2 years) had a series of interviews for a position with a local bike company that I was way more than qualified for, had an internal recommendation and multiple external recommendations for. All was going great, super smooth interview, great rapport with both the immediate supervisor and hiring manager, they seemed to have zero issues with my qualifications or personality, we started talking about start date in the context of when I would start, not if I would start, what to show up with, directions to get there, local food options, bike storage, on and on... somehow we didn't talk about wage and the interview conversations were going so well that it completely slipped my mind.

During what ended up being the very last conversation with them I brought up wage and they asked what I wanted so I asked what the wage range was for the position and they declined to answer directly and told me it was based on experience (which I have plenty of). They then asked again what I wanted so I added a few grand to what I was making at my last job that was nearly identical. They basically said "Ok thanks for your time" and ended the interview. From the time the dollar amount came out of my mouth to the time they cut off the Zoom interview was probably about 1 - 1.5 minutes.

List. The. FUCKING. Wage.

Don't ask for 10 years of experience and then try to pay ~40k a year. A 40k a year job does not deserve 3 interviews, 3 references and 10+ years of experience. 40k a year does not deserve dancing around the wage topic in an interview. No job does, it is a waste of time. I hope this company hired a shit employee that does a shit job and makes their company look like shit and costs their company a boat load of money in mistakes / inefficient work.

Wage is now the first topic of conversation for any job interview I ever have going forward.

Fortunately I landed at another company that seems to be going well so hopefully I don't have to have that conversation until several (hopefully many) years from now, but money is tight at home and the pay is laughably low in the bike industry so I'm not even sure if I can stay afloat in the bike industry boat.

I dunno man.

Edit - I should also add that this was not a highly desirable exclusive industry job or some great opportunity, it was a run of the mill back end industry job that anyone could be trained to do with almost zero knowledge of bicycles or the industry.

Posted by: thaaad

List. The. FUCKING. Wage.

That's absolutely the other side of it. I wrote Unicorn Wanted in an effort to encourage a couple of friends to apply for jobs they're not qualified for on paper, but both of the (interesting) positions don't list compensation. I assumed it was because the companies knew that they weren't going to get any applicants who matched their job description, so the range would be huge depending on how well someone matched the experience and education requirements but now that I think about it that may be looking at it through rose-tinted glasses since my friends were interested in the gigs.

Other reasons they may not list the wage? Maybe they know they'll get zero applicants at the rate they're prepared to pay? Maybe they have a bunch of underpaid people currently on staff and they don't want to give them any ideas? Yeah, I can't think of a single positive reason not to list compensation. 

Glad you landed on solid ground. I hope you're still getting a lot of dad time with your new gig!

Posted by: joseph-crabtree

"A tool to die for" funny, as a professional bike mechanic for almost 40 years I do use a torque wrench (a Park beam type) but still back it up with a hand check. Even rotor bolts!

Even rotor bolts?! I almost don't believe you as I've never seen it done. Hahahaha.

I know the piece was a bit flippant and I didn't mean to deride the use of a torque wrench in general. I use a torque tool semi-regularly in the shop, especially for dainty stems. I just want to flip the idea on its head that, working on bikes, a torque wrench should be the default when in fact, in my experience, relying on torque spec is putting many riders at risk. 

Posted by: silverbansheebike

A tool to die for

Loved this article. It's funny how sometimes following all the steps could still leave you with an unfinished job. The best tool is common sense, or I guess a good feel for how tight is tight enough, maybe. But that comes with time and experience and a few bolts that go from righty-tighty to righty-loosey. Working on a car where the bolts are even harder to access than a bike, often there is no torque wrench that will fit, you or your auto mechanic just has to know.

Thanks!

I like this: "you or your auto mechanic just has to know." It's learned experience more than common sense and like so many things when it comes to working on stuff, the most powerful tool in the box is a recognition of what you don't know, YET.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

the most powerful tool in the box is a recognition of what you don't know, YET.

This sums up so well what I've always believed and have been saying for years about learning, working and just life in general.

I've always said that when you encounter a new situation (new bike in the stand, new job, meet someone new, etc) the first thing you should do is keep mostly quiet and OBSERVE.

Don't grab the tools right away, don't start changing processes at your new job, don't start trying to fit this new person in to your predisposed molds, just let it happen. Shut up and watch. Turn the pedals, look at the chain, wiggle the hubs for play... it will tell you a lot if you just look and listen and the same goes for people and new situations.

Just shut up and look.

Now of course this isn't universal advice and sometimes you do just have to dive in, but I really think that taking some time to just experience "the thing" before you do anything is extremely valuable.

A tool to die for - 

Andrew, Joseph, I also use my torque wrench for rotor bolts.  I undo  / install with my hand drill on a low torque setting and then nip up with my Topeak Combo Torque wrench.  I know its not the most accurate torque wrench but you get to "feel" how tight the bolts are.  I do have a proper TW but use the Topeak as I don't have any carbon or parts that are torque super critical.

Posted by: thaaad

Posted by: AndrewMajor

the most powerful tool in the box is a recognition of what you don't know, YET.

This sums up so well what I've always believed and have been saying for years about learning, working and just life in general.

I've always said that when you encounter a new situation (new bike in the stand, new job, meet someone new, etc) the first thing you should do is keep mostly quiet and OBSERVE.

Don't grab the tools right away, don't start changing processes at your new job, don't start trying to fit this new person in to your predisposed molds, just let it happen. Shut up and watch. Turn the pedals, look at the chain, wiggle the hubs for play... it will tell you a lot if you just look and listen and the same goes for people and new situations.

Just shut up and look.

Now of course this isn't universal advice and sometimes you do just have to dive in, but I really think that taking some time to just experience "the thing" before you do anything is extremely valuable.

Wise words

Yes, even rotor bolt but I still give each one a final check with a wrench. One of my favorite sayings' is "trust in god but row toward shore"

I do work on a lot of bikes with ti bolts and light weight parts so it behooves me to take all necessary precautions for my customers' safety.

Posted by: joseph-crabtree

One of my favorite sayings' is "trust in god but row toward shore"

That's awesome, I haven't heard that saying in a couple of decades but it's a great one.

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Somehow - torque wrench or otherwise - I don't feel like you're sending bikes out with loose lock-on grips, stem-steerer bolts, brake calipers, etc. When it comes to wrenching professionally (for money) I think the first and last step is giving a shit. Everything else sort of works itself out from there.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: joseph-crabtree

One of my favorite sayings' is "trust in god but row toward shore"

That's awesome, I haven't heard that saying in a couple of decades but it's a great one.

------

Somehow - torque wrench or otherwise - I don't feel like you're sending bikes out with loose lock-on grips, stem-steerer bolts, brake calipers, etc. When it comes to wrenching professionally (for money) I think the first and last step is giving a shit. Everything else sort of works itself out from there.

Andrew,  since someone brought up automotive and such. One thing I laugh at in the last few years is in somethings the sales talking point of "military grade". LOL....military grade is really the piece of crap made by the lowest bidder.

Posted by: Endurimil

Andrew,  since someone brought up automotive and such. One thing I laugh at in the last few years is in somethings the sales talking point of "military grade". LOL....military grade is really the piece of crap made by the lowest bidder.

I heard ~ this mentioned once in the presence of a bike mechanic who had formerly been a tank mechanic for the CAF and his reply was something along the lines of "military-grade may mean the minimum acceptable quality, but at least there is a minimum acceptable quality."

One thing not mentioned regarding bolt torque without a torque wench is the type of tool being used. L hex or torx keys are good, as are the foldable hex/torx tools (I like bondhus gorilla grip ones). Give an inexperienced person a 2.5mm allen bit on a 3/8" square ratchet and watch them strip threads or break heads. Give them a 2.5mm L key and they'll be far more likely to get it right. The flex of the allen key lets you know that it's tight and shouldn't be tightened further. You don't get that size specific flex feedback with a ratchet and bits. The other side of this is that for frame hardware the designer should size tool interfaces to suit the required torque, not over/under. That's why it rankles me when a bike reviewer complains that not all the frame pivots and such can be removed with the same size hex key.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

When it comes to wrenching professionally (for money) I think the first and last step is giving a shit. 

This is why I wouldn't want to work on anyone else's bike - there is a massive amount of responsibility for not getting it wrong.

Posted by: kcy4130

One thing not mentioned regarding bolt torque without a torque wench is the type of tool being used. L hex or torx keys are good, as are the foldable hex/torx tools (I like bondhus gorilla grip ones). Give an inexperienced person a 2.5mm allen bit on a 3/8" square ratchet and watch them strip threads or break heads. Give them a 2.5mm L key and they'll be far more likely to get it right. The flex of the allen key lets you know that it's tight and shouldn't be tightened further. You don't get that size specific flex feedback with a ratchet and bits. The other side of this is that for frame hardware the designer should size tool interfaces to suit the required torque, not over/under. That's why it rankles me when a bike reviewer complains that not all the frame pivots and such can be removed with the same size hex key.

This is a great point. In the past I was working on a bike project swapping everything to T-25 and T-30 and there are some bolts/interfaces where a T-25 in the wrong hands would be murder. 

I’ll keep this in mind in the future actually. Cheers! 

Posted by: fartymarty

Posted by: AndrewMajor

When it comes to wrenching professionally (for money) I think the first and last step is giving a shit. 

This is why I wouldn't want to work on anyone else's bike - there is a massive amount of responsibility for not getting it wrong.

I don’t think it’s that hard to give a shit. But I’ve seen plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Maybe I should clarify. Having all frame pivots and hardware use the same size hex/torx is fine and good if it's done correctly. But if the torque callouts for stuff with the same size tool vary greatly then it wasn't designed very well imo.