MEATengines 2022...

Off the trail, buy into whatever brand story you like. On the trail, recognize that it's the bike that you're riding not the brand.

As I was digging into a nice thick plate of MEAT over at the blog and read this ^^^ it occurred to me part of the problem may be the "riding" or lack there of. I have no data to back this up, but I suspect there a significant chunk of "riders" who spend a lot more time reading about, buying, talking about mountain bikes than riding them. Assuming that's true then that could explain the underlying cause of the Starling Fallacy. There is a lack of Trail Truth to offset the illogical brandism.

Posted by: mammal

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: taprider

another decal idea

We ride these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...

JFK

Easy way?

I also keep gloves for a LONG time, and fix them often before eventually retiring them;)

I am not just a local dirtbag. I'am THE local dirtbag. LOL

When I did these and the other pair when the fingers died. Reminded me of those Specialized Ground Control or whatever they called them in 1993.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: AndrewMajor

You’re not just buying a bike, you’re buying a religion?

Funny you mention that. My mother in law was a very religious lady. Prayed every morning and church multiple times a day and so on. Yet when other family members tried to give me grief that I didn't go to church and so on she said I did. As she would point out I was in the woods riding bikes and that was good enough.

'Dirt Church' or 'The Church Of Rolling Mass' or whatever you want to call it is a real thing for a lot of people, myself included. There's magic in the forest that humans have been trying to explain since time began. I don't try to explain it, I just accept it.

------

But, in this case, I'm definitely talking about the insidious ways that (some) organized religion causes people to defend as gospel easily disproven facts and to attack people for having different experiences.

Some of my cousin in laws after reading further into Irish and Scottish history relating to certain religions. Now grasp why so many have a dim view of it. Hell recent example of that mentality was revealed locally last year around a parking lot and lies told.

Posted by: Vikb

Off the trail, buy into whatever brand story you like. On the trail, recognize that it's the bike that you're riding not the brand.

As I was digging into a nice thick plate of MEAT over at the blog and read this ^^^ it occurred to me part of the problem may be the "riding" or lack there of. I have no data to back this up, but I suspect there a significant chunk of "riders" who spend a lot more time reading about, buying, talking about mountain bikes than riding them. Assuming that's true then that could explain the underlying cause of the Starling Fallacy. There is a lack of Trail Truth to offset the illogical brandism.

Vik, you mean spending $8,000 on a titanium wonder mountain bike doesn't make up for lack of skill?

To be fair though, cycling is a sport where in some instances you can literally buy speed. If you’re in a favourable tax bracket and ride in a competitive group, the $/speed equation can make sense.

As evidence I present EXT forks, carbon anything, etc.

I mean, even on an S-Works bike I wasn’t leading the group rides I was showing up to (that was clear) but there’s a distinct performance advantage.

Posted by: Vikb

Off the trail, buy into whatever brand story you like. On the trail, recognize that it's the bike that you're riding not the brand.

As I was digging into a nice thick plate of MEAT over at the blog and read this ^^^ it occurred to me part of the problem may be the "riding" or lack there of. I have no data to back this up, but I suspect there a significant chunk of "riders" who spend a lot more time reading about, buying, talking about mountain bikes than riding them. Assuming that's true then that could explain the underlying cause of the Starling Fallacy. There is a lack of Trail Truth to offset the illogical brandism.

I’d buy that that covers some of it. Its not universal by any means, but lots of mountain bikers replace riding with researching and/or buying gear for riding. For various reasons.

There’s also the fact that - in the exact vein as Plus tires - if you buy into the Starling/Orange/Other-SSP (simple single pivot) line and it works great for you and then people are telling you a more complex suspension system does X, Y, Z noticeably better that can only mean two things:

1) You’re not a super discerning pro trail ripper. 

2) Your bike is magical and rises above simple truths that others hold to be evident. 

I mean, it can also mean that you can recognize the faults of a SSP design v. more complex systems but who gives a f*** if you’re happy enough with your SSP bike, with great geometry and only two bearings and two (shock) bushings to manage. But we’re clearly not talking about that person here.

Posted by: mrbrett

To be fair though, cycling is a sport where in some instances you can literally buy speed. If you’re in a favourable tax bracket and ride in a competitive group, the $/speed equation can make sense.

As evidence I present EXT forks, carbon anything, etc.

I mean, even on an S-Works bike I wasn’t leading the group rides I was showing up to (that was clear) but there’s a distinct performance advantage.

To be faiiiiiiir, I mean yes, if you want to win the RIY group ride the one thing you can buy with treasure is a lighter weight for the same performance. Or higher performance for the same weight.

But, the part of the ‘Starling’ Fallacy that Starling owners get right is - while good geometry is free and easily replicated - geometry really does matter. A lot more than a lot of other stuff.

My all time favourite full suspension bike that I’ve owned - a Marin Rift Zone - was a simple linkage/driven single pivot with relatively basic aluminum manufacturing compared to what companies like Specialized or Giant do, or even compared to their next-gen manufacturing Alpine Trail. It was designed with low leverage for use with a basic shock so it worked great with any coil or air shock I used with it.

It was happiest with more sag than I normally run but it was very obvious where the happy point was, which is great for a more entry level machine and probably for most riders regardless of ability actually. It wasn’t light, but neither was my build and it was a bike that loved to be Legoed. I single speeded it, over-forked it, etc.

If it was custom it would have had longer stays but it was a great value and with 120mm of travel it was neither being survived-on like my rigid V2 or pushed a bit like the long travel Banshee Titan, so it was fun sized.

It was very easy to swap bearings and the frame wasn’t pretentious at all.

It had a sticker that said ‘Made For Fun.’

I’m not going to tell you it could go up against a long travel HP+I bike on a rugged descent, or a fast carbon bike like the Lux up or across. Or that their faux-bar has magic sauce that makes it not do what every other faux-bar bike does. But I honestly don’t think I personally get anything more out of riding a carbon super bike - and I’ve ridden quite a few.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

good geometry is free and easily replicated - geometry really does matter. A lot more than a lot of other stuff.

This is so true.  I was out with a mate the other night and he's on a Nukeproof Mega with 170/160 travel and I'm on my 140/140 Murmur (which has similar geo) and I can almost keep up with him.

Geo trumps all IMO.  Walt 2 is proof in the pudding.

Posted by: fartymarty

Posted by: AndrewMajor

good geometry is free and easily replicated - geometry really does matter. A lot more than a lot of other stuff.

This is so true. I was out with a mate the other night and he's on a Nukeproof Mega with 170/160 travel and I'm on my 140/140 Murmur (which has similar geo) and I can almost keep up with him.

Geo trumps all IMO. Walt 2 is proof in the pudding.

The coolest thing for me is that when I commissioned V1 (which had to exist before V2) it was out in left field but now you can buy ~ the same bike from Stooge or Kona (-2 Angleset a Unit) off the rack.

V2 is the first bike I’ve ever ridden that floored my expectations. It took me months to figure out what rolls and roots (routes) I could hit on it while keeping my hands on the bars and the rubber on the trail. And what makes me giddy is thinking eventually someone (Stooge?) is going to take a step forward with their rigid bikes and say “here’s our Enduro rigid bike with a 64-degree HTA and 450+ stays” and suddenly folks will be able to try a V2 without the risks and costs of going custom.

Getting there the other direction would require companies to put more aggressive geo on shorter travel hardtails and recognize That not every hardtail is also a pump track/slalom bike (longer stays please!). So I think it’s more likely we’ll see someone (Stooge?) do it on purpose first.

Anyway, as you note - geo trumps all. Rigid is not going to be near as fast as an FS bike (the way a shorter travel FS bike v. longer travel one with the same geo are in your example) in the rough stuff but it’s crazy how close I am sometimes. I still think there are plenty of folks who, on riding a V2 with a 2.8” Vigilante would have a bit of an epiphany. It’s fun, maintenance costs are significantly lower, and the hardest part is figuring out the limits.

Posted by: Endurimil

I am not just a local dirtbag. I'am THE local dirtbag. LOL

When I did these and the other pair when the fingers died. Reminded me of those Specialized Ground Control or whatever they called them in 1993.

I just keep all my old worn out gloves. When holes appear in newer pairs, I patch them with pieces of the faux-leather material from the old ones, using a similar-but-better adhesive to Shoe Goo (E6000 Automotive and Industrial Adhesive - truly amazing stuff).

That seat though... You definitely take the dirtbag crown, and trophy, and probably deserve a local monument in your honor.

Andrew - for me riding rigid is similar to FS but way slower and bumpier. The front and rear move the same way. HTs are a weird one - you have a bit of give up front but nowt in the rear. It's when you go back to a FS bike you notice how much faster you can ride things and you don't get beaten up as much.

Hardtail riding in Sweden from a few years ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsrct9Bsvog

Posted by: fartymarty

Andrew - for me riding rigid is similar to FS but way slower and bumpier.  The front and rear move the same way.  HTs are a weird one - you have a bit of give up front but nowt in the rear. I could picture how V2 rides - similar to my Murmur but slower.

I totally agree with this. When I have a suspension fork on my V2 I ride it very differently to when it’s setup rigid.

I’ve gone back and forth in terms of deciding what to do with rehab (rigid/SS v fork/multi-speed) and finally decided to run two mountain bikes again. I’ll leave the V2 as a rigid SS and get back on it when my leg’s strong enough and run a short travel, multi-speed, FS bike when I’m first allowed back on the trails. I like the V2 how I run it, so that means I can use the FS bike as a mule for test parts. That’s where I am right now anyway. Have everything I need on hand except a frame and shock.

Posted by: mammal

I just keep all my old worn out gloves. When holes appear in newer pairs, I patch them with pieces of the faux-leather material from the old ones, using a similar-but-better adhesive to Shoe Goo (E6000 Automotive and Industrial Adhesive - truly amazing stuff).

That seat though... You definitely take the dirtbag crown, and trophy, and probably deserve a local monument in your honor.

Tell me more about this E6000?!

I have to agree, that saddle is worthy of having a proper janky trail named after it. One of the good ones where it feels like you climb your bike from the top to the bottom and there's at least one mandatory bike-carry in the middle somewhere. 

'The Endurisaddle'