MEATengines 2022...

Posted by: joseph-crabtree

I prefer the center of the grips to be about 15-20 mm in front of the steerer axis so with my 16 degree sweep bars I end up with a 60mm stem

Centre of grips on Centre of steerer for me.  I roll the bars to suit.

I'm running a flat bar so rolling doesn't move the grip position much fore and aft like a riser bar will and I'm picky about upsweep, about 2 degrees for me.  I find that more critical to my wrist comfort than most other factors as long as there is at least 10-12 degrees of backsweep.

Fair enough.  I'm on 50s and 70s ( fork travel depending) so lots of scope to roll.

Posted by: fartymarty

Posted by: joseph-crabtree

I prefer the center of the grips to be about 15-20 mm in front of the steerer axis so with my 16 degree sweep bars I end up with a 60mm stem

Centre of grips on Centre of steerer for me. I roll the bars to suit.

Interesting discussion. My V2 the grips sit a bit behind the steerer and my V1 they sit in front. When V1 is back from the WZRD I’ll try and capture the differences in images but in the aggregate it’s probably 20–25mm difference relative to the steerer at the headset bearing cap (where Stack is measured).

V2 is a crazy stable bike - long rear center, long wheel base, slack-slack HTA - and handles as such with a 31mm stem and 16* SQLab bar.

V1 is still a decently long bike and pretty slack (66* static) but handles better with a 50mm stem if I’m using the same sweep.

I’ve tried to explain ‘what, why?’ a few different ways, and I’ll agree with anyone who says we can adapt to most anything, but I find it interesting all the same.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I am glad that we’re ~ past the point where people feel they need to make an excuse to ride a MAMB. It’s faster & easier. Done.

Andrew, current issue have with eMTB has far more to do with the past endless discussions about making local MTB more "inclusive and diverse".  But that is part of a far bigger issue related to the NA bike industry. Other then the land access gong show of Ontario only other discussion had was in 2019 after getting hit and the immediate suggestion was should give up and get an eMTB to make it easier. That didn't go over well. LOL

Posted by: Vikb

Although it was the recent Uncle Dave article that brought this to mind it's a pretty common trope that gets repeated again and again and again. I'm also not saying a newb shouldn't get a FS bike. But the choice is more complicated than "Hardtail bad unless you poor!"

You are correct that most people have not ridden a modern geo hardtail so they are working from some vague memory of being terrified on an old school NORBA-esque XC hardtail. 

When I was more keen on hosting group rides I'd go around to the newbs  + some of the less savvy regulars and check out their setups. I was probably at something like 75% hit rate for finding a major issue with their FS bikes. So even if you think a FS bike is superior to a HT it's got to be setup/maintained somewhat reasonably to perform well. That's a high bar for a lot of people.

Vik, it is a bad trope.  And this is something have touched on elsewhere in past endless discussions of how we need to make "the sport more inclusive and diverse'. There is something fundamentally wrong when people have this perception that an entry level mtb needs to be $2,000. I know a few people who balked at cycling because what is marketed is for those with financial privilege. Reality is most I know who have asked me about getting into bikes $500-800 is there starting point. This trope further fuels that perception of unless you can afford a $2000 FS you can't get into it. And that is by far the hugest barrier to getting more into the sport.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

If only ProTapers 3” riser came out in a 16° backsweep. The ride is comparably delightful.

Andrew, funny timing last September. Dug out these DMR Wingbars  and installed the day before your bar height article was up. LOL

Hmm, the latest Meatengines on the frame upgrade quandary is itching me.

I've been really enjoying my hardtail, but recently found a crack (and am sanding and peering looking for more) so have been back on the FS. 

Losing ~25mm of reach is hard. The sweet spot between the wheels is so much smaller, I feel trapped, like I'm going to loop out or go OTB if I shift my weight. 

Since the last ride I've swapped the bar for one 12mm higher (same other dimensions) in the hope of increasing the RAD / span, crossing fingers this helps. 

I know Peaty can ride the old V10 at near the same pace and rave about the nimble cornering, but my skills just want old Spitty to have ~470mm reach like the Moxie. 

/whinge

"As long as you still ride trails on a meat powered bike, you don't classify as old"

that is what I should have said yesterday at the Dirty Duo race when a friend said "you are old" in reference to racing with guys over 40 years younger

Posted by: Endurimil

Andrew, funny timing last September. Dug out these DMR Wingbars and installed the day before your bar height article was up. LOL

Does this amount of rise make my handlebars look narrower?

said in the same tone of voice as "do these jeans make my..." ;-)

Posted by: Endurimil

That's one of my favourite Chromag stem aesthetics of all time (clamp or direct-mount).

What calipers are you using with the Paul levers?

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Hmm, the latest Meatengines on the frame upgrade quandary is itching me.

I've been really enjoying my hardtail, but recently found a crack (and am sanding and peering looking for more) so have been back on the FS.

Losing ~25mm of reach is hard. The sweet spot between the wheels is so much smaller, I feel trapped, like I'm going to loop out or go OTB if I shift my weight.

Since the last ride I've swapped the bar for one 12mm higher (same other dimensions) in the hope of increasing the RAD / span, crossing fingers this helps.

I know Peaty can ride the old V10 at near the same pace and rave about the nimble cornering, but my skills just want old Spitty to have ~470mm reach like the Moxie.

/whinge

Same stem length and bar width on both machines?

I've brought it up, or danced around it, a number of times in the past, but one of the reasons I think we need 2-3-4 more frame sizes in the average range (XS - S - S/M - M - M/L - L - L/XL - XL -XXL) is that it used to be normal to size a mountain using the stem. There was a time, on the North Shore, when you'd be on the same ride with two people and one would be on a 30-40mm stem and the other would be on 90-100mm stem, on otherwise identical bikes. Then <70mm stems were normal. Then 50mm became the ~ nominal length with some riders going shorter. Now the vast majority of mountain bikers are on 30-50mm stems (or actually 35-50mm stems thanks to 35mm-clamp bars). Effectively that's 1.5cm of adjustment.

Now, it is more possible to subtly change fit and handling with bar width now that we don't all need 800mm bars for stability, but even then I float between a 760mm-780mm bar which is 2cm of adjustment total.

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A lot of bike fit is our learned preference. I generally ride Large bikes as test rigs for NSMB and to some extent, that's what I'm used to now but also the fit tends to be in the ballpark with my V2 - what I've trained myself to ride. So, for example, where I could ride a medium or large Banshee Titan I was very comfortable on the large (with a 50mm stem) thanks to the tall Stack but I rode (much smaller) mediums for years on the same trails with 50mm stems as well.

Now that I'm looking at my V2 as a bike I could have forever or at least until I wear it out when I look at what I'd buy for a theoretical full-suspension bike for the same trail application I'd want to match my position as best as possible. That's within that 30-50mm stem length window which means with a similar Stack, the Reach is going to be about 465-480mm. 

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Put another way, I think there's something to be said about finding a fit that works for you and realizing that it's better than what you were riding before and, if you have multiple rigs, updating your fleet for fit. That does something different (v. is something different). 

For a real-world example, my brother loves the fit of his large (an honest large) GG Smash. He also has a 2015 Honzo that he uses predominantly as a Tech-C single-speed rig for fitness and after-work fun. The Honzo with a 60mm stem comes close enough to fit of his Smash that he can go back and forth between them without major complaints but he's considering replacing the Honzo with something (stock? custom?) that is closer to his GG geometry with a shorter stem and slacker HTA. It's not that he's holding the money ball or tired of the Honzo, he's just thinking that updated geo would make riding his hardtail more fun. 

The Honzo jumps quite a bit from Large to XL (not enough sizes) but the same year's XL with a -2° angleset and over forked with the saddle pushed forward would be a much closer fit than the large he bought some 7-8 years ago based on the fit of his FS bike at the time.

Same stem and bar dimensions. HA within ~1°, similar head tube length.

I've done a lot of buying the bike I already own with the FS, and lessons learnt from that brought me to the hardtail. Now I just wish I could stretch it longer.

Posted by: taprider

Posted by: Endurimil

Andrew, funny timing last September. Dug out these DMR Wingbars and installed the day before your bar height article was up. LOL

Does this amount of rise make my handlebars look narrower?

said in the same tone of voice as "do these jeans make my..." ;-)

LOL funny thing is after ride two barely noticed the width difference.  all joking aside.  Was an attempt using a higher rise bar already had to work around the modern  low front end and low rise bar aggravating the shoulder and such injuries from getting hit. Higher rise alleviated some of it.