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MEATengines

Dec. 4, 2022, 9:47 a.m.
Posts: 479
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: skooks

Posted by: Endurimil

Fuck, glad you're ok Andrew.

https://meatengines.com/f/i-was-hit-by-a-car-tonight

Yes, happy to hear you are ok and in good hands Andrew. Sadly it seems it's not a case of if but when. I saw some Fuckwit in a jeep just about smoke a car stopped at a red light on LV road the other morning. Jeep avoided crashing by swerving into the bike lane at the last second. Fortunately nobody was riding there at the time. Hope you and your bike are back on the road soon.

It's scary on the streets and roads of how little drivers care about anything. It is a huge well-known problem and yet the simple act of traffic enforcement is done minimal if that. And even if they get charged it means jack shit when the courts do the bare minimum if that. Hell, one of those investigative journals shows on either CTV or CBC can't recall which did a story on this I believe in 2020.  They included the incident at Oak and West 49th where the victim's car was hit so hard by the perp it ended up in the Esso Gas Station.

Dec. 4, 2022, 12:47 p.m.
Posts: 507
Joined: June 17, 2016

https://meatengines.com/f/i-was-hit-by-a-car-tonight

Yikes, that sounds terrifying! Healing vibes to Andrew.

Dec. 4, 2022, 2:20 p.m.
Posts: 2594
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Sorry to hear about you getting hit Andrew, hopefully things get sorted out and ICBC and the driver take proper responsibility.

In terms of cycling safety, something I've read in regards to motorcycling safety that applies to cyclists as well is that part of the reason drivers often don't "see" motorcycles (or pedestrians and cyclists) is that human eyes are better suited to seeing things along the horizontal than the vertical. And as cyclists we are basically a thin vertical stick in the field of view of other road users. Another phenomenon is something called inattentive blindness, where most other road users aren't actively looking for cyclists as they are looking for other cars because care represent a danger and cyclists don't. Physiologically we also have optical blindspots . Finally, cyclists can also appear as just a brief blur in other road users field of vision so we don't really register in the brains of drivers, something called motion blindness. All of these factors combined together mean cyclists are not only harder to see but harder for drivers to actually recognize. There's lots of research on how much information our brains don't register because there is so much coming in. The basketball gorilla video is a good example of that.

https://road.cc/content/news/235330-new-research-finds-many-drivers-really-dont-see-cyclists-or-motorbikers-video

Two things I've done to help combat this include running lights at all times and running dual lights spaced apart horizontally. For front lights this is easy to do with lights near either end of the bars (one is a strobe/flasher). For the rear I've cut down an old handle bar, mounted it to the rack and run the flashing out of sequence so they alternate flashing left and right. The horizontal spacing isn't huge, but it definitely helps to create a visual of something wider that what a single cyclist would typically represent. One other thing that's noted to help is a white helmet, as motorcycle studies have shown that white helmets are more visible and more readily register in a driver's field of vision.

Whatever we do though, riding a bicycle in traffic definitely carries an increased level of risk and for that to change drivers need to change their behaviour and mentality when they are behind the wheel.


 Last edited by: syncro on Dec. 4, 2022, 2:22 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Dec. 4, 2022, 2:40 p.m.
Posts: 342
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Oof, heal up Andrew. Mentally too, getting over getting hit is tough.

The driver is always at fault, never gets punished, and you're lucky if they pay for the damage.

Dec. 4, 2022, 3:29 p.m.
Posts: 479
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: velocipedestrian

The driver is always at fault, never gets punished, and you're lucky if they pay for the damage.

A month or so ago saw this in an issue of Bicycling where they looked at this mentality. Safe to say read maybe the first paragraph as couldn't read more as it had me thinking of the crap dealt with since. But this part very much stuck out.

Some genius claimed that if my mtb had snow tires on the driver wouldn't have willfully hit me. Riiight. Bullshit. As the photo above so well says...blame the victim. If a driver maims or kills a cyclist or pedestrian it is always an excuse and usually ends up with some victim blaming dogma like if the cyclist had ridden on the sidewalk and behaved better the driver wouldn't have maimed or killed them.

Dec. 4, 2022, 3:37 p.m.
Posts: 479
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: syncro

Sorry to hear about you getting hit Andrew, hopefully things get sorted out and ICBC and the driver take proper responsibility.

In terms of cycling safety, something I've read in regards to motorcycling safety that applies to cyclists as well is that part of the reason drivers often don't "see" motorcycles (or pedestrians and cyclists) is that human eyes are better suited to seeing things along the horizontal than the vertical. And as cyclists we are basically a thin vertical stick in the field of view of other road users. Another phenomenon is something called inattentive blindness, where most other road users aren't actively looking for cyclists as they are looking for other cars because care represent a danger and cyclists don't. Physiologically we also have optical blindspots . Finally, cyclists can also appear as just a brief blur in other road users field of vision so we don't really register in the brains of drivers, something called motion blindness. All of these factors combined together mean cyclists are not only harder to see but harder for drivers to actually recognize. There's lots of research on how much information our brains don't register because there is so much coming in. The basketball gorilla video is a good example of that.

https://road.cc/content/news/235330-new-research-finds-many-drivers-really-dont-see-cyclists-or-motorbikers-video

Two things I've done to help combat this include running lights at all times and running dual lights spaced apart horizontally. For front lights this is easy to do with lights near either end of the bars (one is a strobe/flasher). For the rear I've cut down an old handle bar, mounted it to the rack and run the flashing out of sequence so they alternate flashing left and right. The horizontal spacing isn't huge, but it definitely helps to create a visual of something wider that what a single cyclist would typically represent. One other thing that's noted to help is a white helmet, as motorcycle studies have shown that white helmets are more visible and more readily register in a driver's field of vision.

Whatever we do though, riding a bicycle in traffic definitely carries an increased level of risk and for that to change drivers need to change their behaviour and mentality when they are behind the wheel.

Maybe. bear with me as am a wee bit fed up lately.

One can talk all the various talking points you want but it still avoids one simple fact. You are operating a vehicle that can kill and maim incredible easily. You can if you fucking desire willfully decide to use that vehicle to threaten, intimidate, scare, maim, hit, or kill with it. And reality is our society has deemed it is acceptable for this to happen. There is zero level of a driver being held responsible for what they willfully do with their vehicle while 100% of responsiblity is on those that they maim and kill.

Reality is you can put all the blinky lights you want and paint 500km of white paint for bike lanes. It means absolutely fuck all when no one gives a shit about dead/maimed cyclists and pedestrians.

Everything else is bullshit and is always comes to avoiding holding drivers to the same level of responsibility is we do Canadian gun owners.

And yeah...am pretty bitter, tired, and fed up with the bullshit.


 Last edited by: Endurimil on Dec. 4, 2022, 3:40 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
Dec. 4, 2022, 3:39 p.m.
Posts: 1438
Joined: Nov. 6, 2006

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: velocipedestrian

The driver is always at fault, never gets punished, and you're lucky if they pay for the damage.

A month or so ago saw this in an issue of Bicycling where they looked at this mentality. Safe to say read maybe the first paragraph as couldn't read more as it had me thinking of the crap dealt with since. But this part very much stuck out.

Some genius claimed that if my mtb had snow tires on the driver wouldn't have willfully hit me. Riiight. Bullshit. As the photo above so well says...blame the victim. If a driver maims or kills a cyclist or pedestrian it is always an excuse and usually ends up with some victim blaming dogma like if the cyclist had ridden on the sidewalk and behaved better the driver wouldn't have maimed or killed them.

Not always the case. Some cyclist can and are to blame. Years ago I witnessed a rider run a stop sign right into the side of a truck. Just this summer while working at UBC I witnessed a roadie running over a pedestrian. So we’re not all angels.

Dec. 4, 2022, 3:47 p.m.
Posts: 479
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: FLATCH

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: velocipedestrian

The driver is always at fault, never gets punished, and you're lucky if they pay for the damage.

A month or so ago saw this in an issue of Bicycling where they looked at this mentality. Safe to say read maybe the first paragraph as couldn't read more as it had me thinking of the crap dealt with since. But this part very much stuck out.

Some genius claimed that if my mtb had snow tires on the driver wouldn't have willfully hit me. Riiight. Bullshit. As the photo above so well says...blame the victim. If a driver maims or kills a cyclist or pedestrian it is always an excuse and usually ends up with some victim blaming dogma like if the cyclist had ridden on the sidewalk and behaved better the driver wouldn't have maimed or killed them.

Not always the case. Some cyclist can and are to blame. Years ago I witnessed a rider run a stop sign right into the side of a truck. Just this summer while working at UBC I witnessed a roadie running over a pedestrian. So we’re not all angels.

It happens. Problem is that no one gives a shit if cyclists or pedestrians are killed or maimed by a driver.  It has become the only view and that is it. Hell...in 2019 about 2 months after was hit a guy in Ottawa go off on killing a cyclist. He hit the cyclist and ran. Then hid his damaged vehicle while repairing it and hid in a hotel room.  Ottawa Police finally got him, but it gets worse. He was let go by the judge with no fall out. His defense... he was afraid of the police because he was a Blackman. Let me put it this way....my in-laws where not happy to hear this as his defense and to this day think he should be in a prison somewhere.

Dec. 4, 2022, 10 p.m.
Posts: 395
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: syncro

Sorry to hear about you getting hit Andrew, hopefully things get sorted out and ICBC and the driver take proper responsibility.

In terms of cycling safety, something I've read in regards to motorcycling safety that applies to cyclists as well is that part of the reason drivers often don't "see" motorcycles (or pedestrians and cyclists) is that human eyes are better suited to seeing things along the horizontal than the vertical. And as cyclists we are basically a thin vertical stick in the field of view of other road users. Another phenomenon is something called inattentive blindness, where most other road users aren't actively looking for cyclists as they are looking for other cars because care represent a danger and cyclists don't. Physiologically we also have optical blindspots . Finally, cyclists can also appear as just a brief blur in other road users field of vision so we don't really register in the brains of drivers, something called motion blindness. All of these factors combined together mean cyclists are not only harder to see but harder for drivers to actually recognize. There's lots of research on how much information our brains don't register because there is so much coming in. The basketball gorilla video is a good example of that.

https://road.cc/content/news/235330-new-research-finds-many-drivers-really-dont-see-cyclists-or-motorbikers-video

Two things I've done to help combat this include running lights at all times and running dual lights spaced apart horizontally. For front lights this is easy to do with lights near either end of the bars (one is a strobe/flasher). For the rear I've cut down an old handle bar, mounted it to the rack and run the flashing out of sequence so they alternate flashing left and right. The horizontal spacing isn't huge, but it definitely helps to create a visual of something wider that what a single cyclist would typically represent. One other thing that's noted to help is a white helmet, as motorcycle studies have shown that white helmets are more visible and more readily register in a driver's field of vision.

Whatever we do though, riding a bicycle in traffic definitely carries an increased level of risk and for that to change drivers need to change their behaviour and mentality when they are behind the wheel.

Maybe. bear with me as am a wee bit fed up lately.

One can talk all the various talking points you want but it still avoids one simple fact. You are operating a vehicle that can kill and maim incredible easily. You can if you fucking desire willfully decide to use that vehicle to threaten, intimidate, scare, maim, hit, or kill with it. And reality is our society has deemed it is acceptable for this to happen. There is zero level of a driver being held responsible for what they willfully do with their vehicle while 100% of responsiblity is on those that they maim and kill.

Reality is you can put all the blinky lights you want and paint 500km of white paint for bike lanes. It means absolutely fuck all when no one gives a shit about dead/maimed cyclists and pedestrians.

Everything else is bullshit and is always comes to avoiding holding drivers to the same level of responsibility is we do Canadian gun owners.

And yeah...am pretty bitter, tired, and fed up with the bullshit.

Yeah, I ride almost entirely gravel and back alleyways home from work. It adds significant time but I'm well aware that cyclists never win - against cars or the system. If you're riding a bike, your death is not a crime. 

I had just exited an alley and was parked at a red light, right foot down, waiting to cross the street a block from my apartment. I had been sitting for about a minute and the light was about to turn green (the advanced walk had already clicked over). Despite my bright getup and multiple ultra-bright blinky lights, the motorist drove straight into the back of me. 

I've asked the RCMP to pull phone records as I can't think of any other way she would have missed my disco-display. We'll see if anything comes with it. 

The reason I take the lane at the said intersection is that I had a close call with a driver turning right - that is, right in front of me - previously. The fact is there's not a safer street to cross than the one I was on.

I was unlucky in getting smoked - if only I'd left work a minute later - but also lucky in that I'm only out some discomfort and a rear wheel build/rim. But it could have been a lot worse. 

.

But, I'm not taking one fucking ounce of responsibility here beyond all the precautions I already take for my safety. I was 100% not at fault and obeying the motor vehicle act, I was fully lit up and wearing bright clothing. My lights are even offset as one is on my bike and one is on my pack offset to the left. 

White helmet? Seriously? That's right up there with Mayor Little's suggestion that commuters should protect themselves by wearing body armour. If my life is down to the colour of helmet I'm wearing then the colour of helmet I'm wearing is not the problem.

Dec. 4, 2022, 10:18 p.m.
Posts: 479
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: syncro

Sorry to hear about you getting hit Andrew, hopefully things get sorted out and ICBC and the driver take proper responsibility.

In terms of cycling safety, something I've read in regards to motorcycling safety that applies to cyclists as well is that part of the reason drivers often don't "see" motorcycles (or pedestrians and cyclists) is that human eyes are better suited to seeing things along the horizontal than the vertical. And as cyclists we are basically a thin vertical stick in the field of view of other road users. Another phenomenon is something called inattentive blindness, where most other road users aren't actively looking for cyclists as they are looking for other cars because care represent a danger and cyclists don't. Physiologically we also have optical blindspots . Finally, cyclists can also appear as just a brief blur in other road users field of vision so we don't really register in the brains of drivers, something called motion blindness. All of these factors combined together mean cyclists are not only harder to see but harder for drivers to actually recognize. There's lots of research on how much information our brains don't register because there is so much coming in. The basketball gorilla video is a good example of that.

https://road.cc/content/news/235330-new-research-finds-many-drivers-really-dont-see-cyclists-or-motorbikers-video

Two things I've done to help combat this include running lights at all times and running dual lights spaced apart horizontally. For front lights this is easy to do with lights near either end of the bars (one is a strobe/flasher). For the rear I've cut down an old handle bar, mounted it to the rack and run the flashing out of sequence so they alternate flashing left and right. The horizontal spacing isn't huge, but it definitely helps to create a visual of something wider that what a single cyclist would typically represent. One other thing that's noted to help is a white helmet, as motorcycle studies have shown that white helmets are more visible and more readily register in a driver's field of vision.

Whatever we do though, riding a bicycle in traffic definitely carries an increased level of risk and for that to change drivers need to change their behaviour and mentality when they are behind the wheel.

Maybe. bear with me as am a wee bit fed up lately.

One can talk all the various talking points you want but it still avoids one simple fact. You are operating a vehicle that can kill and maim incredible easily. You can if you fucking desire willfully decide to use that vehicle to threaten, intimidate, scare, maim, hit, or kill with it. And reality is our society has deemed it is acceptable for this to happen. There is zero level of a driver being held responsible for what they willfully do with their vehicle while 100% of responsiblity is on those that they maim and kill.

Reality is you can put all the blinky lights you want and paint 500km of white paint for bike lanes. It means absolutely fuck all when no one gives a shit about dead/maimed cyclists and pedestrians.

Everything else is bullshit and is always comes to avoiding holding drivers to the same level of responsibility is we do Canadian gun owners.

And yeah...am pretty bitter, tired, and fed up with the bullshit.

Yeah, I ride almost entirely gravel and back alleyways home from work. It adds significant time but I'm well aware that cyclists never win - against cars or the system. If you're riding a bike, your death is not a crime. 

I had just exited an alley and was parked at a red light, right foot down, waiting to cross the street a block from my apartment. I had been sitting for about a minute and the light was about to turn green (the advanced walk had already clicked over). Despite my bright getup and multiple ultra-bright blinky lights, the motorist drove straight into the back of me. 

I've asked the RCMP to pull phone records as I can't think of any other way she would have missed my disco-display. We'll see if anything comes with it. 

The reason I take the lane at the said intersection is that I had a close call with a driver turning right - that is, right in front of me - previously. The fact is there's not a safer street to cross than the one I was on.

I was unlucky in getting smoked - if only I'd left work a minute later - but also lucky in that I'm only out some discomfort and a rear wheel build/rim. But it could have been a lot worse. 

.

But, I'm not taking one fucking ounce of responsibility here beyond all the precautions I already take for my safety. I was 100% not at fault and obeying the motor vehicle act, I was fully lit up and wearing bright clothing. My lights are even offset as one is on my bike and one is on my pack offset to the left. 

White helmet? Seriously? That's right up there with Mayor Little's suggestion that commuters should protect themselves by wearing body armour. If my life is down to the colour of helmet I'm wearing then the colour of helmet I'm wearing is not the problem.

Andrew, as said glad your ok. And no, you aren't responsible for the fact the driver did this. However, the sad reality is we live in a society were pedestrians and cyclists take all the responsibility for everything including the drivers' actions. As you described about the colour of the helmet and such nonsense suggestions some are making. Fuck that shit. That would be unacceptable excuse if that was the basis for the perps defense if my wife or daughter where sexually assaulted and would be vilified for victim blaming using clothing and scarf colours. Ugh, hate the whole blaming the victim even if they did what they were supposed to. 

Apologies Andrew if a bit harsh.  Been typing up some more answers for the lawyer tonight around some things.

Dec. 4, 2022, 11:30 p.m.
Posts: 368
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

The amount of people i see looking at their phones while driving is staggering.  They get a good slap on window as I ride past...  

Good to hear you're ok Andrew.

Dec. 5, 2022, 2:25 a.m.
Posts: 26
Joined: Sept. 17, 2020

Andrew, glad you are ok. It amazes me how inconsiderate and negligent other drivers can be. Heal up soon, it's almost 2023, hopefully a better year is ahead!

Dec. 5, 2022, 6:26 a.m.
Posts: 2594
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: AndrewMajor

But, I'm not taking one fucking ounce of responsibility here beyond all the precautions I already take for my safety. I was 100% not at fault and obeying the motor vehicle act, I was fully lit up and wearing bright clothing. My lights are even offset as one is on my bike and one is on my pack offset to the left. 

White helmet? Seriously? That's right up there with Mayor Little's suggestion that commuters should protect themselves by wearing body armour. If my life is down to the colour of helmet I'm wearing then the colour of helmet I'm wearing is not the problem.

I've read lots of safety articles over the year due to being a motorcyclist and for whatever reason there unfortunately seems to far more studies on road safety from a motorcyclist's perspective than from a cyclist's. I think the motorcycle example is valid to use because from a car/truck driver's visibility perspective, motorcyclists and cyclists share a fairly similar profile out on the road. What I said wasn't intended as slight in any way as I don't know what your setup is - but I do assume you're more aware and have a better setup than the avg cyclist out there. The info I shared was a PSA for anyone reading who may ride a bike on the road as a way to increase their visibility and safety and to recognize how and why drivers see - or don't see - us out on the road. If there's evidence that shows these things help then I think it's info worth sharing. 

FWIW, even though this isn't a roadie or commuter site there are probably more than enough people here who commute by bike to justify an article on cycling road safety and things we can do to protect ourselves.

Dec. 5, 2022, 7:04 a.m.
Posts: 1658
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

Posted by: AndrewMajor

But, I'm not taking one fucking ounce of responsibility here beyond all the precautions I already take for my safety. I was 100% not at fault and obeying the motor vehicle act, I was fully lit up and wearing bright clothing. My lights are even offset as one is on my bike and one is on my pack offset to the left. 

White helmet? Seriously? That's right up there with Mayor Little's suggestion that commuters should protect themselves by wearing body armour. If my life is down to the colour of helmet I'm wearing then the colour of helmet I'm wearing is not the problem.

Victim blaming is routine when the solutions for a problem are uncomfortable for the folks who have the power to make the needed changes.

Dec. 5, 2022, 7:27 a.m.
Posts: 2594
Joined: Nov. 23, 2002

Posted by: Vikb

Victim blaming is routine when the solutions for a problem are uncomfortable for the folks who have the power to make the needed changes.

I don't know if you could go so far as to call the suggestion of body armour as victim blaming. While Mayor Little's suggestion may seem a bit ridiculous, people used to think the same thing about helmets. It seems as if his suggestion didn't come from out of left field either as there was a research study done in Alberta that looked at injuries to cyclists and one of the suggestions was thoracic protection. I for sure think drivers need to have better training, pay more attention and have more severe punishments for their indiscretions when it comes to injuring people, but until that happens it also makes sense to take steps to protect oneself. I don't know if I'd go so far as to wear body armour while commuting, but there does seem to be some evidence to support the idea.

https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/study-supports-adding-body-armour-to-cycling-safety-gear-1.1446732

link to study if anyone cares: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3672442/


 Last edited by: syncro on Dec. 5, 2022, 7:27 a.m., edited 1 time in total.

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