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MEATengines 2022...

Aug. 25, 2022, 1:23 p.m.
Posts: 772
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: fartymarty

Posted by: Vikb

it feels a bit weird to be MEing on NSMB.

Agreed, the only reason I set it up was to have a place to comment / discuss but it's weird. I wonder how many non ME readers have found this thread?

It’s clear there are folks who read this thread who don’t read ME. But that’s cool.

Posted by: Vikb

I wasn't complaining about this thread. It's great. Thanks for thinking about it. I meant taking over a sub-forum on NSMB with a thread per ME post would be a bit weird. Like a human powered bike weirdo occupation! ;-)

Hahahaha. As it is (and with all appreciation to Marty for setting it up as I enjoy it as well) it’s a little strange already since MEATengines started specifically as a home for content that didn’t suit the folks at NSMB.

Posted by: fartymarty

I'm glad the thread actually took off but agree it's probably not the right place for it (but better than any other place I could think of). No worries for setting it up - I enjoy the conversations on it.

I guess it's semi NSMB related albeit the odd ball faction in the corner discussing handlebar sweeps and the best wire for push on grips (and other off beat shit that doesn't quite fit anywhere else on the www but is specific to mtb rather than being general bike oddballs like Radavist which I also quite like).

NSMB has changed a lot since I started writing for them, it’s way more universal. I mean, not talking about my own contributions of rigid forks and single speeds and push-on grips but stuff like Cooper pushing forward Shore-XC content and gravel riding.

And of course the embrace of battery-powered everything and the narrative that riding an e-bike is just doing ‘It’ differently with ‘It’ being mountain biking v. A broader outdoor rec category that could include hiking/moto/horses/trail running/off-road skateboarding/fishing/water skiing/trials moto/etc.


 Last edited by: AndrewMajor on Aug. 25, 2022, 1:24 p.m., edited 1 time in total.
Aug. 25, 2022, 1:35 p.m.
Posts: 1090
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

Andrew - I think Mike's piece today may have killed the e-bike coverage... there were a lot who don't share the e-love.  I'm not sure about gravel - I still don't quite get it.

Aug. 25, 2022, 1:39 p.m.
Posts: 2307
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

Posted by: fartymarty

Andrew - I think Mike's piece today may have killed the e-bike coverage... there were a lot who don't share the e-love.  I'm not sure about gravel - I still don't quite get it.

Even FIRE won’t kill ebike coverage. I think we’ll have to nuke it from space! 😂

Aug. 25, 2022, 1:45 p.m.
Posts: 1090
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: fartymarty

Andrew - I think Mike's piece today may have killed the e-bike coverage... there were a lot who don't share the e-love.  I'm not sure about gravel - I still don't quite get it.

Even FIRE won’t kill ebike coverage. I think we’ll have to nuke it from space! 😂

🤣 - at least they'll burn up quickly.

Aug. 25, 2022, 2:47 p.m.
Posts: 55
Joined: Dec. 24, 2021

Posted by: fartymarty

Posted by: Blofeld

machine made blue trails as “cart paths”.

Blue flow trails bore me and they're way more risk than red / black (black / double black in north america) tech trails. Give me steep, slow and techy any day on any bike (rigid or suspended).

I was riding in Blue Lake CA the other day while visiting family, and I happened to run into some California Conservation Corps folks being given a tour. They stopped at a point where two trails split off, one's a machine built blue flow trail, the other is hand built and narrow (still blue). They walked down to look at the berms and jumps and I heard the guide talking with pride about all the investment that went into the trail, they got a builder to come out from Tennessee apparently to build it. It struck me in a new way that maybe that's part of the point: "look how much money we spent on this trail system."

Aug. 25, 2022, 10:14 p.m.
Posts: 772
Joined: Feb. 28, 2017

Posted by: fartymarty

Andrew - I think Mike's piece today may have killed the e-bike coverage... there were a lot who don't share the e-love. I'm not sure about gravel - I still don't quite get it.

I enjoy Mike's writing such that I usually read his pieces twice back to back. Today, the second time there was a song playing in my mind in the background. Kris Kristofferson - Sunday Morning Coming Down.

"... and it echoed through the canyons / like the disappearing dreams of yesterday."

We live in a time where loud minorities can sometimes make themselves seem much larger than they are and that's true of politics and bicycles. And if you ignore legacy rides and look at the high-end rigs that shops are selling we're in the minority now, or maybe almost. Why the high-end rigs? Because where goes the premium edge of mountain biking (longer travel, shorter travel, weight matters, now it doesn't, now it does, now it doesn't) goes the majority of the activity. I have a fair few friends who work in bike shops, even bike shops that are not super aggressively pushing motor-assist, and an ever-increasing percentage of their customers with means know they want a plug-in.

The stigma of riding an e-bike is all but gone along with any false humility that once accompanied them. I very regularly hear riders talking about their accomplishments in the same way that Pharaoh "built" the pyramids. "I cleaned X climb" or "I rode to the top in thirty minutes and it used to take me well over an hour" or "I did twice as many laps as I used to." And on some level, for the majority of folks who don't 'need' pedal assist it's like cheating at Solitaire. I mean, you do you 100%, but I assume I'm not the only one who is not interested in hearing about how you're undefeated? I had a buddy tell me a couple of weeks ago tell me that he'd cleaned an SOB of a local climb that I've never made. F-ME I was stoked for him. STOKED. Guess what... yeah.

And for some of my friends who still vehemently oppose them being on the trails, I think, if we were all being honest, a big part of it is fear. Not the fear of access issues or battery fires, but the fear that the activity they love and many of the friendships they've built through blood, sweat, and adventure are going to leave them behind because the motorized version of mountain biking is significantly less financially accessible and significantly more exclusive than the current one. Anyone who's been injured for any length of time knows how folks disappear from our lives.

I know of people who've made the plunge to buy an e-bike, at what's a huge financial commitment for them, because that's what their whole riding group has done. When that bike's out of warranty and cooked, or under-powered and obsolete in a few years and all their friends are upgrading will they, or will they be able to, buy in again? Yes, this is not a new phenomenon brought on by blender-bikes, it's been happening since mountain bikes came into existence. But like the argument that motors are just another upgrade like disc brakes or better suspension or good tires, it's actually such a stratospheric change that it's like comparing my new more-ergonomic shovel to my buddy's mini-excavator.

------

I guess that brings me to two things.

1) E-Bikes aren't going anywhere on NSMB. The majority of regular contributors enjoy riding them, as do the dudes at the top. I'd bet you the first round that the silent majority of readers are interested in BroPed content. Even if they don't own one or it's not a near-term purchase. Assume any new component development you see is taking e-bike accountability into account. Yes, even drivetrains that are being raced in WC XC. In that way, a lot of battery-free content isn't really battery-free. 

2) There's a silver lining that actually hadn't occurred to me before I met up with Vik for a ride in Cumberland. Five of us all on hardtails, two single-speeds, big smiles, sweating, tired legs, out for a fun adventure. One of the things that first drew me to mountain biking was that it was always easy to find your people. You know you're out riding on a rainy afternoon in November and someone is coming towards you on the trail on a mountain bike? They're your people. Etc., etc., etc. Then the sport exploded. Which has been great in many ways (bikes are so good, trails are so good - the variety of people doing it!) and less good in other ways. And certainly, there are a lot of folks now who ride bikes, especially in the summer months, that aren't my people. In this way, I've gotten over my sadness.

In the same way that I'm always very excited to meet another single-speeder or rigid fork rider, or many days just any other person on a hardtail, I'm a bit pumped for the day that I have something in common with anyone choosing to pedal themselves up the trails on a mountain bike.


 Last edited by: AndrewMajor on Aug. 25, 2022, 10:20 p.m., edited 4 times in total.
Aug. 26, 2022, 1:52 a.m.
Posts: 1090
Joined: Aug. 13, 2017

Andrew - Fear does play a small part in the reason I don't want an e-bike*.  The fear of not being able to drop £5k+ on a bike, the fear getting old and not being as fit as I once was, the fear of costs, the fear of obsolescence, the fear that I would really enjoy one...

*  at least at this stage in my life (late 40s and still relatively fit) however this may change as I get older and less fit.  I occasionally ride with a group that has a mix of ebikes and mountain bikes.  Those on ebikes use them as they're older (well into 60s) and it allows them to keep up with the rest of the group.  The speed of the group is still dictated by the slowest rider - this is one of the core rules of the group.  The other rule is that they must get to the pub by 10pm to get a few pints in before closing at 11.

I can see why NSMB are covering them as there will be trickle downs to mountain bikes - stronger drive trains (possibly and hopefully efficient gearboxes) and generally more robust components.

Aug. 26, 2022, 6:22 a.m.
Posts: 2307
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

While I am truly sad to see the bicycle become obsolete technology and see "my tribe" shrink there is an upside that Andrew alluded to above...the weirdos that are left riding penny-farthings in the forest are 100% MY WEIRDOS!!!

Aug. 26, 2022, 5:15 p.m.
Posts: 724
Joined: Feb. 24, 2017

Posted by: Vikb

While I am truly sad to see the bicycle become obsolete technology and see "my tribe" shrink there is an upside that Andrew alluded to above...the weirdos that are left riding penny-farthings in the forest are 100% MY WEIRDOS!!!

We won't even need a secret handshake anymore, just waxed moustaches to compliment the iron velocipedes.

Aug. 27, 2022, 11:42 a.m.
Posts: 425
Joined: Jan. 21, 2013

Hah. “It’s like cheating at Solitaire”

Well said. Might like that as much as “broped”  

I don’t mind reading about ebikes but don’t currently want one. The existence of its coverage doesn’t cause me to writhe in pain on the floor. I mean I like to read a fair bit about cars on the internet but I’m also not buying a Porsche 911 in any imaginable future.

Aug. 27, 2022, 12:18 p.m.
Posts: 2307
Joined: Sept. 10, 2012

Prior to e-MTBs becoming a thing I never found myself browsing moped sites. Pink Bike have a e-bike toggle which is a nice feature. You can turn the coverage on or off at will.

Aug. 27, 2022, 2:13 p.m.
Posts: 963
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: fartymarty

Andrew - Fear does play a small part in the reason I don't want an e-bike*.  The fear of not being able to drop £5k+ on a bike, the fear getting old and not being as fit as I once was, the fear of costs, the fear of obsolescence, the fear that I would really enjoy one...

Reality is the only people coming into the sport who buy eMTB's are those of the correct financial privilege.  All the bullshit grinders of the bike industry  can claim in PR that it is being increasing diversity and inclusion as well as growing the sport is PR BS. It only benefits those of the correct financial privilege to participate and in truth makes the sport more elitist then it already is. Hmmm this is starting to seem like the old IOC pre 1988 rules of amateurism designed to keep those without the correct financial privilege out of the sport.

Aug. 27, 2022, 2:47 p.m.
Posts: 6
Joined: April 26, 2021

One of the big sponsors of AMA pro MX telecasts is Stacyc. They are really pushing e-bikes for kids. Big demos at the races and their commercials have 6 year olds doing backflips into foam pits and jumping across swimming pools. So now the progression will be balance bike > Stacyc > e-MTB without ever turning a pedal.

Aug. 27, 2022, 3:36 p.m.
Posts: 963
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: Vikb

Somewhat off topic, but on ME brand I was riding with a buddy this week and we were chatting about how mountain biking has changed from a rugged outdoor adventure sport to golf....complete with the motorized carts! And we both have some interest in trail running....although we like MTBing more...the trail running community these days feels more like "our people" than what's going on in mountain biking. The effort/challenge/skill is "the" draw. Being outside moving around uphill and downhill under your own power is what's appreciated.  As you get older you run slower and less far. Then you walk a bit and maybe end up hiking most of the time. Nobody is excitedly talking about the new powered exo-suits that will let you climb faster with 25% effort, get trail laps done twice as fast or turbo charge your weekly mileage. You don't see people loading up a Taco with runners at the trailhead so they can shuttle some sweet downhill trail laps. 

It makes me feel sad to write that, but that's how it seems to me.

^^^This

Can't agree more. As mentioned before in 2019 after getting left to die by that evil doer a couple of people said just get an eMTB. It still bothers me to this day that the best encouragement and support by some to a rider who has been hurt is just give up and buy the mtb version of a golf cart??  Fortunately wasn't listening well due to other factors. 

Effort, challenge and skills to me are the draw while using ME. Reality is I will never if I desired be able to trail run again so an ME Chromag replaces that. Challenge wise...interestingly over the last two years learned at least for me riding thrillcraft on trails that are challenging (rocks, logs, rock sections, and so on)  and require skill  and effort actually have a bigger effect on managing my mental illness then riding the well manicured golf course trails you describe.  Further to the challenge/effort/skill part a lot don't grasp I now believe is that no ride of the trail is the same....today you found that trails flow and was a great and the next 3-4  rides of the same trail will be crap. And no one seems to understand that to improve that is simply trying several times that section you find hard to figure out better and so on they all now blame the trail, their bike, and trail builder for it being a crap ride. Funny you mention golf....it takes effort to get skill to play golf respectably and even then you don't play every hole well and so on. Interestingly never heard golfers blame the course or course builder for their crap round. As I recall aside from buying better clubs most would go and practice on the driving range. 

Speaking further of challenges. Last two years has been interesting as with zero racing of any kind have ridden a bunch of new trail areas around that few ride or even know about. And explored some other areas. Actually miss doing that more than racing. And ended up kinda coming up with personal challenges or as I call some of the Idiot Challenges LOL on my own from most times up a hill in 90 days to last years Triple Crown I did near Barry's Bay. Add in did a wee bit of Peakbagging when I found that website by accident so for fun went and rode up a few of them in the last two years.  Sure not the elevation of BC but challenge is a challenge.

Actually reminds me of something else I miss....the old style group ride. Gather on a specific day and a specific time. Go for a ride with others like minded and it wasn't always how fast you could go. Group stops while people tried to ride over that log or tried to get a wee bit further over it this time before they had to dab and dismount.  Best times for that had out here was the Don Rats rides on Sat and Sun. Same idea with stops in certain places to chill. Funny thing is I improved more skill wise on those easy mtb group rides something I think we are missing today out on.

Aug. 27, 2022, 3:43 p.m.
Posts: 963
Joined: March 16, 2017

Posted by: Vikb

While I am truly sad to see the bicycle become obsolete technology and see "my tribe" shrink there is an upside that Andrew alluded to above...the weirdos that are left riding penny-farthings in the forest are 100% MY WEIRDOS!!!

LOL....

How did you like riding Denman Island? Out of curiosity what route did you take? Ask as tool my Stumpjumper to Denman a few times in the late 80's as my mom's parents live on the island for a number of years. So rode all over the south half of the island. Wish had pics from back then.


 Last edited by: Endurimil on Aug. 27, 2022, 3:53 p.m., edited 1 time in total.

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