Posted by: velocipedestrian
The pilot is happy with it.
She managed to get it started solo today. I'm going to look out for a lower stack seatpost - there might be 10-15mm extra, which could mean being able to sit with both feet [toes] down.
Awesome!
And yeah, those RF posts have tall heads. Almost anything should get you at least a cm.
Yeah. I like the adjustment separation the RF head design gives, but it's kind of the antithesis of OneUp in terms of stack.
Maybe a shorter post will get her using the sweet brass-bushing hope clamp for actual adjustment.
Posted by: AndrewMajor
There’s a second factor there - which you allude too - that is being okay with parts not matching (which is also an easy identifier of frankenbikes - and maybe where min-maxing and frankenbiking can’t be separated).
If you crack a rim that has been out of production for five years do you replace one or both? Does it have to be the same brand (peel those decals?), same width, same colour, same material.
If you trash one of your Schwalbe tires, the local shop only has Maxxis, and you want to ride do you buy a single or a pair?
If you trash one of your NX crank arms and only a GX replacement is available do you buy a single mod-matched arm or a set?
Learned long ago to make do with what can get and better to be able to ride then worry about if it matches. Maybe having certain habits ingrained by Scottish parents and Grandad helps. LOL
Reality is for a number of years since my daughter was born in 2007. Ok let's be honest till was crushed by the car and got a full new bike. Have made do with what could get within budget and to meet finance committe aka Wife's clear memo so was primarily used parts. Of course some things have to buy new- tires and drivetrain parts are examples.
Run what you can and go ride your Thrillcraft through the woods.
Posted by: Endurimil
Run what you can and go ride your Thrillcraft through the woods.
Endurimil - Wise words.
In a similar vein (and linked in with a great piece I keep going back to https://nsmb.com/articles/ride-rigid-fork/) i've recently resurrected my rigid Krampus... (apologies for the spudcam photo)
for off road use. It's been serving as my commuter with road tyres, road cassette and fenders (now removed for summer). I've been rebuilding my sagwagon (Murmur) so have changed out the wheels (including cassette and chain) and set it up rigid - in theory it's an easy swap back to a "road" bike when I need to commute. It's running 10 speed (11-42), Zee mech and 2.3 Tough Vigis.
I rode the other night with mates on their sagwagons and had a blast. Sure it was bumpy as hell but I still rode all the same trails and still at a reasonable speed. There was a gap that I didn't jump but mainly because it was a little wet. It reminded me that you can still have fun and ride proper trails on a very simple (and cheap to maintain) bike. I do love riding my sagwagon but if I had to chose one bike I would have to take the Krampus.
I don't overly like the term "overbiked" but it does make me think that we (as a collective group of mtbers) are going this way. How long will it be before we are all riding 200/200 trail bikes? Maybe the way forward is less / no travel to keeps things challenging. In my mind rigid is similar to FS although it's slower and bumpier. Suspension just lets you ride the same trail much faster - increasing the severity of a crash. Rigid makes you focus on the trail rather than speed.
Maybe one day we will have rigid DH / Enduro classes at races (including WC level).
"Suspension just lets you ride the same trail much faster - increasing the severity of a crash. Rigid makes you focus on the trail rather than speed"
I've been riding my new-to-me hardtail exclusively so far, mainly as I'm in the new bike honeymoon period (first hardtail since a long time and first time I've had 2 bikes to choose from) but also because I am loving the simplicity, weight and precision to the handling and responsiveness. I don't really jump or "send" anything more than 2-3 feet and I've noticed how much I used to just smash my way through trails on my Fugitive. It's made me seriously question where it fits in my enjoyment tier. Maybe I need to ride the FS bike soon to see how my enjoyment has changed as I always had a massive grin on my face....
But to your point, I'm still hitting speeds on flow trails that if I went any faster, I wouldn't have the reflexes or skills to get out of trouble and for the slower tech that is in my wheelhouse I don't necessarily know if having rear suspension makes too big a difference as compared to the nimbleness and response I get from a much lighter bike.
I also get into the lego building aspect of this kind of bike. I went all-in and have a single speed and no dropper with mismatched brakes as I always wanted to try Hope V4s and found a single front I could stick on. Easy peasy on this bike.
Next up, an 8 speed 11-42 from S-Ride via Natural Cycle Works, a Zee derr and a friction thumb shifter to change things up again. Doing this kind of thing and riding this kind of bike makes me feel like a kid again in the best sense of the word and get back to not being so serious about it all.
I possibly may just go fully polarised and stick with the Rootdown, lose the Fugitive and get a full on DH bike for the other end of the riding spectrum
Right now I’m running a Giant Trance geared more towards cross-country and endurance racing with my Timberjack that has heavy tires and a big ol’ fork, and I’ve been appreciating the dichotomy quite a bit. The small amount of squish on the Trance takes the sting out of rooty sections on long rides, while the Timberjack keeps gnarly downhills feeling sporty, jumps fantastically, and keeps me from chasing speed when I should be riding for fun.
Really loving the post today, Andrew. These people who stick up their nose at domestically produced, high quality product and hand-crafted mountain bikes will happily throw down on a Santa Cruz (great bikes, but certainly overpriced and not domestically produced), or happily pay retail for a $260 pair of Smith riding glasses so they can look the part.
Posted by: snowsnake
Really loving the post today, Andrew. These people who stick up their nose at domestically produced, high quality product and hand-crafted mountain bikes will happily throw down on a Santa Cruz (great bikes, but certainly overpriced and not domestically produced), or happily pay retail for a $260 pair of Smith riding glasses so they can look the part.
Cheers!
Sunglasses is an item where I’d love to see margins through the whole production process. I’d guess marketing is the biggest line item for most brands in terms of costs.
In my mind, I was only just getting to comparing product to product (shorts v. shorts, etc) but there’s a whole other discussion comparing between categories.
I've had sunglasses from pretty much every level of the pricing spectrum. My $0.02:
I tend not to lose or damage my sunglasses so I stay away from the cheapies most of the time because the crappy optical quality and poor fit compromises my enjoyment of what I am doing. Mid-Range options are great for situations where the optical quality isn't the most important factor and where loss or damage is a factor. If I had to wear these sunglasses all the time I'd be fine with it.
My high end experiences have all been with Oakleys so I am not sure if these comments are generally true, but every time I have spent money on a pair of Oakleys I have felt like the cost was justified in terms of performance, comfort and post-sales support. My oldest pair of Oakleys is 15+ years and going strong. If I recall correctly I have replaced the lenses once and the rubber wear bits twice. My MTB glasses are a pair of Oakley photochromatic shield style glasses that are incredibly clear and distortion free which makes bombing through the trees into the sun and back again with eye protection a pleasure vs. other sunglasses I've tried. Bonus points because they don't fog up, they are super comfortable and they resist damage really well. 2022 is their 5th year in service for every MTB ride I do and they feel and look like new.
I recently went to get new Rx glasses and was browsing frames. I tried on a bunch quickly that seemed the right shape and of course the pair I liked the look and fit of best were Oakleys at about twice the price of the next best pair. My previous Rx glasses had lower cost frames and they worked, but I frequently have had issues with them. So I decided to get the Oakleys. When I picked them up the optometrist hands me a nice protective case with a spare set of arms, rubber bits and a cleaning cloth. My previous Rx frames came with nothing and when time comes for me to stop using them those frames won't be re-used. OTOH every time I put on the new Oakley Rx frames they feel great and stay in place perfectly and with the spare parts provided I expect they'll last at least two sets of lenses perhaps more.
Are the Oakleys overpriced, poor value, marketing budget bloated products??? I've never regretted buying a set of Oakleys even though the cost at purchase has hurt. They have worked better and longer for me than anything else I have tried so on a $/Use basis they are at least a lot more competitive than the initial price would lead you to believe. I really like that for a lot of models you can buy spare parts and keep your sunglasses rolling along instead of having to buy a new set.
I'd also add that you don't need to pay full MSRP if you are willing to put some elbow grease into finding a sale.
Yeah, not so much interested in what they cost as much as in what they cost to make. In the context of margins and what’s a good value.
Going back to Kitsbow shorts that, despite the work that goes into making them in the USA, many folks would call not just expensive but “too expensive.”
When those same people would drop the same or more money on say a pair of Oakley glasses where Luxottica is making massive margins.
For example, improved optics noted, how much more do the Oakley’s cost to make than basic Ryders?
Posted by: AndrewMajor
Yeah, not so much interested in what they cost as much as in what they cost to make. In the context of margins and what’s a good value.
Going back to Kitsbow shorts that, despite the work that goes into making them in the USA, many folks would call not just expensive but “too expensive.”
When those same people would drop the same or more money on say a pair of Oakley glasses where Luxottica is making massive margins.
For example, improved optics noted, how much more do the Oakley’s cost to make than basic Ryders?
What's a good value doesn't [necessarily] matter with respect to what the product costs to make. If someone comes up with a way to make a pair of equivalent to Kitsbow shorts for $50 then sells them for $100 and Kitsbow decides to make their own fabric in house in some esoteric artisanal process that costs $1000 and then sells them at a loss for $800....that doesn't make the non-Kitsbow option a terrible deal or the Kistbow ultra option an amazing deal at $200 less than actual costs to make!!!!!
I think it's 100% fair to factor in other considerations into the process of determining what is a good value [supporting local businesses/workers, environmental considerations, etc...], but primarily for the consumer what matters is what the product or service does for them.
Do I care if Oakley makes twice the margin on a pair of sunglasses vs. Ryder? Nope. I care how they perform and their longevity vs. the cost. I don't feel like Oakley owes it to me to have low margins. OTOH if Oakley costs doubled because they wanted even bigger margins I couldn't swallow that value proposition.
My go to MTB shorts are RF Stage shorts [thank the Bike Gods for long inseams...at least in the previous version]. They go for $68USD. The Kitsbow Mescal [comparable product] is $199USD. So that's about 3 times more expensive to buy. Let's just assume the Kitsbow fit me as well as the RF shorts did. Would I spend 3 times as much for the additional things that Kitsbow brings to the table? No. I wouldn't heckle Kitsbow for their prices either. I get that making stuff domestically costs more and I see the value in that approach...not 3 times the cost in value though. Would I spend an extra 30% over the RF product? Yes. An extra 50%? Yes. Somewhere between 50%-100% more I lose my enthusiasm though.
OTOH back when GG first came out with their carbon bikes they delivered a high quality domestically made product with a impressive feature list and performance profile at a cost lower than their competitors and they made money on each bike so they could reinvest into the business and grow their operation. Now that was a compelling domestic manufacturing story. But again I largely don't care what their margins were when deciding if it was good value aside from wanting them to stay in business. If they did all sorts of great domestic manufacturing stuff with their bikes, but the frames were 3 times what an Asian made carbon frame cost with low margins I wouldn't be interested.
No doubt what makes something “expensive” v. “too expensive” is going to be a wildly varying personal decision. But as with gas prices, I think it’s fair to be considering corporate earnings when talking about pricing.
It a similar discussion to people claiming a product is a “rip off” in a bike shop where the margins are significantly lower - and their community input in wages, taxes, donations is significantly higher - because it’s a higher price than the same item from a warehouse based in a tax haven.
It’s all just food for thought. I’m trying to look beyond just dollars and make long term purchasing decisions. Paying a few more bucks for shorts and amortizing them over a long period to support a business where it’s easy to confirm they’re paying fair wages/treating their employees fairly and following NA labour and environmental rules, and giving back to culture/community is worthwhile to me. Even if there’s a similar quality product with a cool brand for a bit less money.
———
“No. I wouldn't heckle Kitsbow for their prices either. I get that making stuff domestically costs more and I see the value in that approach...not 3 times the cost in value though. Would I spend an extra 30% over the RF product? Yes. An extra 50%? Yes. Somewhere between 50%-100% more I lose my enthusiasm though.”
Exactly. This number is going to be individual and I think folks tolerances to pay more and own less is increasing.
Posted by: AndrewMajor
No doubt what makes something “expensive” v. “too expensive” is going to be a wildly varying personal decision. But as with gas prices, I think it’s fair to be considering corporate earnings when talking about pricing.
It a similar discussion to people claiming a product is a “rip off” in a bike shop where the margins are significantly lower - and their community input in wages, taxes, donations is significantly higher - because it’s a higher price than the same item from a warehouse based in a tax haven.
It’s all just food for thought. I’m trying to look beyond just dollars and make long term purchasing decisions. Paying a few more bucks for shorts and amortizing them over a long period to support a business where it’s easy to confirm they’re paying fair wages/treating their employees fairly and following NA labour and environmental rules, and giving back to culture/community is worthwhile to me. Even if there’s a similar quality product with a cool brand for a bit less money.
———
“No. I wouldn't heckle Kitsbow for their prices either. I get that making stuff domestically costs more and I see the value in that approach...not 3 times the cost in value though. Would I spend an extra 30% over the RF product? Yes. An extra 50%? Yes. Somewhere between 50%-100% more I lose my enthusiasm though.”
Exactly. This number is going to be individual and I think folks tolerances to pay more and own less is increasing.
Ok...if your going to the too expensive route. Then let's acknowledge the fact that some people can't go the expensive riding glasses route simply because it can start to add up quickly. Sure in an ideal world I would use em. Reality is memory issues and such make it an expensive proposition. It isn't just me, met a few riders in the last little while with the same issue. Maybe cheap sunglasses aren't the best solution but when you have a hard enough time at times remembering important shit like not leaving garage doors wide open and leave home and even other things. Losing multiple pairs per year and month gets fucking expensive fast.
Posted by: AndrewMajor
Yeah, not so much interested in what they cost as much as in what they cost to make. In the context of margins and what’s a good value.
Going back to Kitsbow shorts that, despite the work that goes into making them in the USA, many folks would call not just expensive but “too expensive.”
When those same people would drop the same or more money on say a pair of Oakley glasses where Luxottica is making massive margins.
For example, improved optics noted, how much more do the Oakley’s cost to make than basic Ryders?
Andrew, in terms of riding clothes especially shorts and such. Will grab a photo tomorrow of what had to do to work around a medical device for knee.
Posted by: AndrewMajor
But as with gas prices...
Don't mention fuel prices. We're north of £1.80/litre of diesel and petrol just below that.
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