MEAT Engines 2023...

Posted by: Jeh

I put my spacers below the headtube ;)

That’s a nice little build detail I missed in your post on the leaning thread. Did you get to pick the ano colour?

Since I admittedly don’t really know what issue the 30mm limit is trying to solve, take this with a grain of salt. I think it is there to prevent bending in the unclamped length of steerer between the upper headset cup and the stem. Load that the headset and frame sees with a tall spacer stack shouldn’t be any different than it would be with a high-rise bar, which tells me that the failure concern would be in the upper steerer tube itself. 

The under headset spacer is bit of a different case in that it makes the fork into a bigger lever. Like you said, the fit of that spacer is also tight and on the wider part of the steerer.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

At what point does the number of headset spacers become to much? 🤣

The point when it compromises the reach. Till then, get some.

Though am also thinking that it also becomes a question of at what point does it become better choice of a higher rise bar vs more headset spacers. Because logically as you add more spacers under the stem. As the stem is moved higher the reach will decrease. 

And am starting to think may be going to the higher then 40mm rise bar next.

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

At what point does the number of headset spacers become to much? 🤣

The point when it compromises the reach. Till then, get some.

Though am also thinking that it also becomes a question of at what point does it become better choice of a higher rise bar vs more headset spacers. Because logically as you add more spacers under the stem. As the stem is moved higher the reach will decrease. 

And am starting to think may be going to the higher then 40mm rise bar next.

That's what I meant re: compromising the reach. You could fit a taller bar, fewer spacers and change the ride feel with the same hand-dirt height. 

Just part of the endless fit experiment.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

At what point does the number of headset spacers become to much? 🤣

The point when it compromises the reach. Till then, get some.

Though am also thinking that it also becomes a question of at what point does it become better choice of a higher rise bar vs more headset spacers. Because logically as you add more spacers under the stem. As the stem is moved higher the reach will decrease. 

And am starting to think may be going to the higher then 40mm rise bar next.

That's what I meant re: compromising the reach. You could fit a taller bar, fewer spacers and change the ride feel with the same hand-dirt height. 

Just part of the endless fit experiment.

And then they wonder why beer is needed while thinking about all this. 🤣

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

At what point does the number of headset spacers become to much? 🤣

The point when it compromises the reach. Till then, get some.

Though am also thinking that it also becomes a question of at what point does it become better choice of a higher rise bar vs more headset spacers. Because logically as you add more spacers under the stem. As the stem is moved higher the reach will decrease. 

And am starting to think may be going to the higher then 40mm rise bar next.

That's what I meant re: compromising the reach. You could fit a taller bar, fewer spacers and change the ride feel with the same hand-dirt height. 

Just part of the endless fit experiment.

Not sure "compromise" is the right word as it does reduce reach but that can also be used for fitting. I run a 15mm rise bar with 25mm of spacers instead of a 35 or 40mm rise bar to reduce the reach slightly on a bike that is a bit long for me.

Posted by: joseph-crabtree

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: Endurimil

At what point does the number of headset spacers become to much? 🤣

The point when it compromises the reach. Till then, get some.

Though am also thinking that it also becomes a question of at what point does it become better choice of a higher rise bar vs more headset spacers. Because logically as you add more spacers under the stem. As the stem is moved higher the reach will decrease. 

And am starting to think may be going to the higher then 40mm rise bar next.

That's what I meant re: compromising the reach. You could fit a taller bar, fewer spacers and change the ride feel with the same hand-dirt height. 

Just part of the endless fit experiment.

Not sure "compromise" is the right word as it does reduce reach but that can also be used for fitting. I run a 15mm rise bar with 25mm of spacers instead of a 35 or 40mm rise bar to reduce the reach slightly on a bike that is a bit long for me.

Fair enough. I have yet to own a bike I wished was shorter, but I know that's not universal.

For me the spacers v bar rise doesnt matter as I run a 0mm effective stem length (grip centre through steerer centre).  Therefore raising either effects the reach.

However on the trail bar height and fit seems to matter more than a number (reach).  I say find what works for you.

Posted by: fartymarty

For me the spacers v bar rise doesnt matter as I run a 0mm effective stem length (grip centre through steerer centre).  Therefore raising either effects the reach.

This is bang on. The only net difference should be bar sweep/rise angle once you hit your favoured position. 

I remember PB talking about how they were setting up bikes for a multi-rider Field Test with different bars rather than stem spacers to “preserve the reach” and thinking it sounded like a complete waste of time. Effectively, the high rise bars in “reach compensation mode” is the same as adding stem length. Since the optics of using a stem longer than 50mm is too much for some people, you end up with these rationalizations.

Posted by: fartymarty

...I run a 0mm effective stem length (grip centre through steerer centre).  

Ah, never see this mentioned! I run a 40mm stem, and bars rolled back somewhere closer to inline with the head angle than upright. 

Effective stem length looked like maybe only couple of mm's forward of center last time I checked. Made me wonder what this distance outta be, and if bar roll should be a bigger factor in determining stem length than it is.

Posted by: Blofeld

Posted by: fartymarty

For me the spacers v bar rise doesnt matter as I run a 0mm effective stem length (grip centre through steerer centre). Therefore raising either effects the reach.

This is bang on. The only net difference should be bar sweep/rise angle once you hit your favoured position.

I remember PB talking about how they were setting up bikes for a multi-rider Field Test with different bars rather than stem spacers to “preserve the reach” and thinking it sounded like a complete waste of time. Effectively, the high rise bars in “reach compensation mode” is the same as adding stem length. Since the optics of using a stem longer than 50mm is too much for some people, you end up with these rationalizations.

I can't back this up with science but after some somewhat heated comments in a NSMB piece I wrote previously, I did an experiment with shorter stems run slammed with higher-rise bars and then longer stems with more spacers under them and low-rise bars. I was playing extremes (76mm rise bar vs. 15mm rise bar) and I couldn't get an exact matched position so there's nothing scientific about this; however, with a longer stem even if the effective position is (almost) the same the steering feels different to me (in a bad way). That's going back and forth multiple times - all in my head?

Mountain bike fit is a game of small adjustments - look at the difference 1-2 centimeters of chainstay or Reach length make - and even with the same effective stem length the steering felt different to me. I'm prepared to accept there's no physics behind that but I'll also be sticking to the shorter stem/taller bar setup.

Actually, preparing to delve into experimenting slightly shorter rise bar with a shorter stem run lower on my Walt V2 as part of playing with negative effective stem length and Reach/Stack. All for fun but on a static (rigid) bicycle it's interesting how handling changes with small adjustments.

Posted by: Hepcat

Posted by: fartymarty

...I run a 0mm effective stem length (grip centre through steerer centre).  

Ah, never see this mentioned! I run a 40mm stem, and bars rolled back somewhere closer to inline with the head angle than upright. 

Effective stem length looked like maybe only couple of mm's forward of center last time I checked. Made me wonder what this distance outta be, and if bar roll should be a bigger factor in determining stem length than it is.

This was my experience re-looking at the 76mm ProTaper riser. I was running it rolled back so much to find the comfy place that I ended up bumping up to a 40mm stem instead of my typical 31mm on the V2. The bigger the rise the bigger the range of usable roll it seems.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: Blofeld

Posted by: fartymarty

For me the spacers v bar rise doesnt matter as I run a 0mm effective stem length (grip centre through steerer centre). Therefore raising either effects the reach.

This is bang on. The only net difference should be bar sweep/rise angle once you hit your favoured position.

I remember PB talking about how they were setting up bikes for a multi-rider Field Test with different bars rather than stem spacers to “preserve the reach” and thinking it sounded like a complete waste of time. Effectively, the high rise bars in “reach compensation mode” is the same as adding stem length. Since the optics of using a stem longer than 50mm is too much for some people, you end up with these rationalizations.

I can't back this up with science but after some somewhat heated comments in a NSMB piece I wrote previously, I did an experiment with shorter stems run slammed with higher-rise bars and then longer stems with more spacers under them and low-rise bars. I was playing extremes (76mm rise bar vs. 15mm rise bar) and I couldn't get an exact matched position so there's nothing scientific about this; however, with a longer stem even if the effective position is (almost) the same the steering feels different to me (in a bad way). That's going back and forth multiple times - all in my head?

Mountain bike fit is a game of small adjustments - look at the difference 1-2 centimeters of chainstay or Reach length make - and even with the same effective stem length the steering felt different to me. I'm prepared to accept there's no physics behind that but I'll also be sticking to the shorter stem/taller bar setup.

Actually, preparing to delve into experimenting slightly shorter rise bar with a shorter stem run lower on my Walt V2 as part of playing with negative effective stem length and Reach/Stack. All for fun but on a static (rigid) bicycle it's interesting how handling changes with small adjustments.

Re-reading my post, I think I came across heavier-handed than I usually intend…Sorry about that! I have several points of frustration around this topic, mainly to do with media ignoring all aspects of bike fit other than reach.

No, I don’t think the steering effect you perceived in your experiment is all in your head. You may have been adjusting handlebar rise and sweep as well as stem-bar-steerer-system stiffness substantially in that set of substitutions. I don’t think these are negligible traits by any means. Personally, I like the steering feel of a (gaaaaak) 35mm bar, and definitely can’t chalk that up to anything other than stiffness. I am also thankful that you haven’t explicitly credited the change in reach as the main driver of improved steering in your experiment. 😂

I made some fresh tracks today and was inspired by this thread to delete an under-stem spacer. My goal was to slow down the steering a bit to compensate for minimal traction. mikesee’s steering damper for fat bikes blog post has an interesting take on this issue.

With a high rise bar you can use it in “reach compensation mode” and it doesn't change the rise/back sweep angle as much as a lower rise bar but it does have some effect that you have to compensate for at some level. It's all connected and most of the time everything is a compromise, you just have to decide what works for you and for what your riding. I've been going back and forth with a 31mm and 40mm stem and both have their plus's but neither is prefect everywhere. FWP

There’s a lot of misunderstanding about bars, rise, sweep, stems and spacers. It doesn’t matter how the grips gets to where they are but the steering feel and fit relate to their 3D location and their angle only (ignoring flex). It’s both steering geometry and fit geometry.

I continue to see talk of “spacers eating into reach vs high rise bars”. They don’t. Run a high rise bar with the rise vertical then you’re effectively lengthening the stem. Run a high rise bar with the rise in line with the head angle and you’re keeping the effective stem length the same but losing reach, just as spacers would.

I have the same bars and stem length on my hardtail and my full-sus. On the former the rise is slightly forward of the head angle and on the latter it’s slightly behind. That suits the steering feel of each best (calms the hardtail, livens up the full-sus).

You can’t defeat the fixed nature of reach and stack (unless you’ve got a reach adjust headset!)