MEAT Engines 2023...

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: Blofeld

I’ve had a mixed track record with my Shimano brakes.

I have older Shimano brakes that continue to work perfectly 10 years from purchase. They had me sold as a Shimano for life guy, but more recent brakes have had the wandering bite point issue and I notice/dislike it a lot. I've tried SRAM Codes and Magura MT5s since then. Both work well. I'm a bit mystified that a big company with a huge engineering department like Shimano can't sort out their brake issues even after years of customer complaints. That just seems weird to me.

Based on bikes I’ve ridden (review and customer bikes) most people don’t notice the WBP even if their brakes are particularly bad for it.

It is weird to me both that Shimano hasn’t done anything to resolve it (do they not ride other companies brakes? One of the reasons the Dominion is great is the folks from Hayes - engineers and racers - rode MT7 brakes for a year) and also that a clean and clear explanation of what causes the issue, even if it’s multiple things, hasn’t come out.

Bandaids with mixed claims of results aside (like Shigura caliper swaps or different fluids or pads) there’s no actual fix that I know of.

Posted by: Blofeld

Coincidentally, one of my Cura4s (with nonstandard fluid) has been misbehaving since I’ve come back from vacation. It may be time to hunt for the o-ring specs or unload if I’ve got a lemon.

Happy that AI has my back - haha.

What fluid in the Cura4? Was it a swap to deal with a brake issue or just a case of using what was on hand? 

I was a mineral oil proponent for a long time, but as more and more viable systems using different fluids come to market (Shimano, Magura, Formula, SRAM!) I find the consistency of both purchase and performance of DOT increasingly appealing.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Based on bikes I’ve ridden (review and customer bikes) most people don’t notice the WBP even if their brakes are particularly bad for it.

It is weird to me both that Shimano hasn’t done anything to resolve it (do they not ride other companies brakes? One of the reasons the Dominion is great is the folks from Hayes - engineers and racers - rode MT7 brakes for a year) and also that a clean and clear explanation of what causes the issue, even if it’s multiple things, hasn’t come out.

Bandaids with mixed claims of results aside (like Shigura caliper swaps or different fluids or pads) there’s no actual fix that I know of.

I'm not surprised a lot of people don't notice/care about WBP. My GF is always amazed that I can tell something is broken on her bike just lifting it off the rack and putting it on the ground....with a nasty clunk. She'll cruise right along until the shock/pedal/wheel falls off.

On my pair of Shimano brakes with the worst case of WBP the difference between one pull and another is the difference between feathering the brake and locking it up. The limited amount of modulation on Shimano brakes doesn't help. It's mostly an issue going down something steep and slippery where locking up a wheel is not helpful nor is having to dedicate more neurons to thinking about what my brake fingers are doing.

I've read all the WBP info online I could find and I didn't come up with anything that solves the problem.

Definitely weird on Shimano's part. I'm one of those people that would have just kept buying their brakes without a second thought if they didn't annoy me every time I used them. They are essentially forcing me to spend $$ and try out the competition.

Posted by: fartymarty

Shimano Brakes - I've been running Putoline https://www.mtbr.com/threads/non-shimano-mineral-oil-for-shimano-hydraulic-brakes.307004/page-3 in my XT785 / Zee brakes on the HT for a while now and the wandering bite point seems less of an issue. My understanding is the stock Shimano oil is quite viscous and traps air easily cf the Putoline.

I know at least two folks who run Magura Blood in their Shimano brakes with the same goal. Apparently the lower boiling point hasn’t been an issue. Results are mixed and even then it’s not being claimed to be a solution in either case.

------------------------------------

Tried Royal Blood in one, Shimano in the other last year but I couldn't put my finger on the difference. It was in Shigura anyway which didn't have a wandering bite point

....so science!

Maybe somebody else can do a better job with the experiment. I'd be willing to give that Putoline a shot though. 

I've had some degree or another of wandering bite point on half a dozen (more?) different Shimano brakes over the past decade, except the Shigura. Gravity bleed has been a great temporary fix, operative word temporary.

THE SYNDICATE-Pit Tips- Brake Bleeding

https://youtu.be/piWBVDh1pTE

Posted by: Vikb

I figured with the OG thread reaching over 100 pages it made sense to start some Fresh MEAT for 2023 and keep thread size manageable. I hope all the regular MEAT heads had a great holiday season and wish you all a happy 2023!

I've just seen this - I was thinking things had gone quiet....

What fluid in the Cura4? Was it a swap to deal with a brake issue or just a case of using what was on hand? 

Red Line LikeWater. The swap was specifically for low temperature performance. There was a lot of pad rub and general unhappiness at -25. I also looked at the Putoline 2.5wt mentioned in the other thread, but couldn’t source any in Canada. It’s hard to say if being frozen was hard on my seals or if it’s just a viscosity effect, but I get a lot of air into these Cura4s now and have to bleed them frequently.

I also tried LikeWater in the ‘bad’ M7000 Shimano brakes I was dealing with. I noticed some improvement in WBP when riding, and some strange wander-like behaviour in the shop when flicking the levers as fast as I could.

Posted by: Vikb

I'm not surprised a lot of people don't notice/care about WBP. My GF is always amazed that I can tell something is broken on her bike just lifting it off the rack and putting it on the ground....with a nasty clunk. She'll cruise right along until the shock/pedal/wheel falls off.

I've read all the WBP info online I could find and I didn't come up with anything that solves the problem.

Mechanical sympathy. Some folks have it, some folks don't. For the sympathetic among us it seems like wilfully ignoring the obvious, but they really don't seem to notice. 

Have you read the Mighty Ridemonkey thread on brakes? I don't think they've solved it yet, but there are plenty of strong theories.

Posted by: Blofeld

What fluid in the Cura4? Was it a swap to deal with a brake issue or just a case of using what was on hand? 

Red Line LikeWater. The swap was specifically for low temperature performance. There was a lot of pad rub and general unhappiness at -25. I also looked at the Putoline 2.5wt mentioned in the other thread, but couldn’t source any in Canada. It’s hard to say if being frozen was hard on my seals or if it’s just a viscosity effect, but I get a lot of air into these Cura4s now and have to bleed them frequently.

I also tried LikeWater in the ‘bad’ M7000 Shimano brakes I was dealing with. I noticed some improvement in WBP when riding, and some strange wander-like behaviour in the shop when flicking the levers as fast as I could.

Interesting. Red Line LikeWater is what Wolf Tooth uses in the Resolve Dropper and bar-none it is the most consistent dropper post in the cold. Hadn't considered trying it in brakes. 

I'd be tempted to do a bladder kit on the Cura4 brakes before tossing them since it's unlikely that air ingress is happening at the caliper or line without fluid leaking. I mean, I don't know how likely it is coming from the master but clearly, air has to come from somewhere.

Posted by: Blofeld

Shimano Wandering/Wondering

In anticipation of this article I had been asking ChatGPT questions about the WBP.

Now see what it has to say about the Whistler Bike Park.

FWIW, I don't care about shimano wandering bite point. It doesn't bother me enough to care. On 2 pairs of saints and a set of XT 4 piston. So... we're out there! I get why it bugs other people a ton though. I am quite heavy and very much NOT a finesse rider, and the suspension designs of the bikes I like to ride really reward the BRAKE OR DONT approach to riding. If I was dealing with wet slabs like you guys? I might have other ideas, but the steep and deep dust of the interior summer? On, middle,  or off is fine for me, thanks.

The moment my brakes have WBP i throw the bike into a creek and walk out.  F that noise.

Posted by: Vikb

Such an awesome shot.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I'd be tempted to do a bladder kit on the Cura4 brakes before tossing them since it's unlikely that air ingress is happening at the caliper or line without fluid leaking. I mean, I don't know how likely it is coming from the master but clearly, air has to come from somewhere.

Good idea. If I open the Cura4s up to do o-rings I should probably change the bladder and some other bits in there as well. The first order of business will be to put regulation fluid back in them for the summer and see how it goes. It hasn’t been a big deal, they just fail the upside down bike test sooner than I’d like.

Posted by: Jotegir

Posted by: Blofeld

Shimano Wandering/Wondering

In anticipation of this article I had been asking ChatGPT questions about the WBP.

Now see what it has to say about the Whistler Bike Park.

These are important questions! I needed to get a bit creative to get ChatGPT to reveal the truth about this issue. I think it’s safe to assume $VAIL is going to save a tonne of money in their customer service department next year...

In the thrilling new novel, "Mountain Mayhem," the idyllic slopes of Whistler Blackcomb are turned into a battlefield as the resort sabotages the Shimano brakes of unsuspecting mountain bikers. As the bikers become embroiled in a dangerous game of political intrigue, they must race against time to uncover the truth behind the sabotage and save themselves from a deadly fate. With high-stakes action and a cast of unforgettable characters, "Mountain Mayhem" is a must-read for fans of adrenaline-fueled adventure.

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I don't think it's cynical to say that the cranks on these rigs will get continually shorter until they're just pegs - or maybe there will be some vestigiality. 

Hmmm unless they have changed the import rules and such around things. The cranks have to be there and usable. As I recall if they aren't the Feds will change the import and such categories which then increases all the various fees, duties, and such that they will get dinged with.

You can buy Surons and their ilk in Canada today so I don't think pedals vs. pegs is going to hold anyone back. The only argument will be around trail access. 

$6K CAD --> https://surron.ca/pages/light-bee-x

Late post here as I read through all 12 pages i've missed...

If I'm going e i'm skipping the gateway drug (ebikes etc) and gong straight to the good stuff - https://starkfuture.com/products/stark-varg.