MEAT Engines 2023...

Posted by: mrbrett

Funny, I’m short crank curious and the right age to think about preventing future knee issues. I like pedalling and the BB on my suspension bike (Specialized Status) is quite low, even in the high setting. 

I wish there was some way to borrow/rent some before committing to a purchase. Or, I suppose if I went for a set I could shift them over to one of my kids bikes if it’s a disaster. 

Can’t wait for dropper style adjustable telescopic cranks that are short when you need and long when you need.

Throwing a chainring on there that is 2 teeth bigger might give an approximation?

I dropped 2 teeth when going down 5mm in crank length, although I don't think it quite made up the difference.

Posted by: Blofeld

Posted by: mrbrett
Can’t wait for dropper style adjustable telescopic cranks that are short when you need and long when you need.

Hahaha, I am imagining some sort of mechanical system to make the throttle twister appear to be pedalling when they are actually just sitting. This could be useful to keep the trail police off the dirt-bike scent, so to speak.

Posted by: Endurimil
Laterally stiff and vertically compliant.

Love it. One of the best characterizations to ensure the bike will climb like a mountain goat on Ritalin.

LOL...mountain goat curled up not willing to move with a racing anxiety attack like heart rate while wondering what the fuck is wrong with it?

At 5'11" with 33" pants inseam I've been happy on 175mm cranks for a long time. I've tried to avoid low BBs for the most part, but some have come my way and I use 170mm cranks on those frames. My gut feeling is I climb better on 175mm cranks, but I have no real data to back that up. Plus if I am smacking my pedals on rocks/roots while climbing it's not going to end well so even if shorter cranks are theoretically worse I'll climb better with them on a low BB frame. 

A set of discounted 165mm RF Affect cranks crossed my path and I snagged them. They are still in the box. My 5'6" GF may end up using them or I'll get a frame with an annoyingly low BB and have to break them out. Not sure yet! I'm not feeling motivated to swap them into a bike where 170mm or 175mm cranks are working fine, but sooner or later they'll get used.

I've always run 165 cranks on my DH bikes (at least since 2008), and 175 everywhere else. When I got my new suspension trail bike in 2020, it came with my first set of 170's, and man, I'm glad it did. It was way better for clearance vs. modern BB's, but even at 170 it took a while for steep-ish climbing to feel normal. Getting used to 5mm shorter cranks, plus 29er wheels at the same time took some time, but they feel good now. I've still got 175 on the hardtail, but those feel very unwieldly now that I'm used to my 170's, and I do notice myself bashing things more than I noticed before (same bike). 

In the future, I don't think I'll make the 175 choice again.

But will you run 170mm on everything or will you be chasing the real short crank experience - 165, 160, 155, or even 150mm? Shorter?

Posted by: niels@nsmb.com

These two sentences stood out for me in the shorter cranks post:

"I've yet to talk to a short-crank adopter who enjoys powering themselves up hard single-track climbs and I've yet to talk to a self-powered rider who likes to climb and is interested in short cranks."

"I'd say if you're happy with your current setup, you probably aren't missing out on anything."

Of course fit is important and if someone has knee issues, shorter cranks are worth trying out, but I'd also suggest looking at the meat engine that powers those cranks. I'm very sensitive to knee issues but improving my strength, balance, and flexibility made them mostly go away eventually.

Meat engine upgrades have always been the most effective upgrades for me.

Niels, outside of logical reasons for shorter cranks like your short, a child, certain bikes, or some medical condition. It to me smells of shoe industry level equipment science meaning none. 

Note: probably a wee bit grumpy after few things suggested to me in the last while. LOL

And while yes depending on the injury you might need to change cranks. However it feels way too much like trying to get me to change crank length because according to some marketing type if I don’t I will get hurt. And if it also starts heading down the path of the marketing types that are bodies are broken and no longer adapt to things. That you need shorter cranks because despite thousands of years of evolution and adaptation somehow we no longer adapt.

I call bullshit. As a rider and a coach have spent three years working and adapting to ride despite serious injuries. It takes time and effort to fucking do that. Adaptation to riding mtb’s is not a two week process that spending extra money on cranks and whatever shit that some bike industry bullshit grinder claims with zero science to fix what isn’t fucking broken.

It takes time and effort even for one who has been riding for years to after severe injury to adapt to riding with the current you.

Anyone who tries to tell that adaptation doesn’t happen without time and effort is full of shit and is there to remove money from your wallet.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

But will you run 170mm on everything or will you be chasing the real short crank experience - 165, 160, 155, or even 150mm? Shorter?

As long as the trail contains no uphill whatsoever at all anywhere ever I'd be all over that.

My buddy just went 175's from 170's, because he's an idiot I figured, but now he's clearing the technical bits of the climb he couldn't previously.

I'll still stick with my 170's though because fashion and my BB is like 3cm off the ground.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I actually did sit down and imagine a V3 because I'm very, very, into the idea of a stainless steel frame and fork but the changes I'd make are so minuscule that it would only be an exercise in material.

Stainless?! But how will it be raw and cosmic lilac? 500mm chainstays a la Paul Aston? Please expand.

I asked about Reynolds 953 and I was told that Ti probably had more plusses for a MTB, but I’m interested in your take.

Posted by: Blofeld

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I actually did sit down and imagine a V3 because I'm very, very, into the idea of a stainless steel frame and fork but the changes I'd make are so minuscule that it would only be an exercise in material.

Stainless?! But how will it be raw and cosmic lilac? 500mm chainstays a la Paul Aston? Please expand.

I asked about Reynolds 953 and I was told that Ti probably had more plusses for a MTB, but I’m interested in your take.

All my jokes about my love of purple aside, I love-love raw metal. Maybe I could do like my friend Nick with his pending Naked and just add a colour stripe? Not painted mind you - I don’t hold with painting Ti or stainless - but just a stylish Lilac accent.

My rear center is sitting at about 460+ right now and that’s great.

A titanium frame is going to be lighter weight, no doubt. Less options for stainless frame parts so it’s not as much cheaper as you’d think, maybe. Overbuilt steel and Ti ride similarly to me (Ti’s magic gets lost in translation), what’s another negative of stainless vs. Ti?

The big negative of Titanium is the welder/builder has to be 100% on their game when making it. Steel is a significantly more forgiving material and I’ve just seen one too many Ti frames break when/where they shouldn’t have to justify the trust/investment. I LOVE the paint-free program, but I can get that in stainless now, and I’m not concerned about a couple hundred grams here or there.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: Blofeld

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I actually did sit down and imagine a V3 because I'm very, very, into the idea of a stainless steel frame and fork but the changes I'd make are so minuscule that it would only be an exercise in material.

Stainless?! But how will it be raw and cosmic lilac? 500mm chainstays a la Paul Aston? Please expand.

I asked about Reynolds 953 and I was told that Ti probably had more plusses for a MTB, but I’m interested in your take.

All my jokes about my love of purple aside, I love-love raw metal. Maybe I could do like my friend Nick with his pending Naked and just add a colour stripe? Not painted mind you - I don’t hold with painting Ti or stainless - but just a stylish Lilac accent.

My rear center is sitting at about 460+ right now and that’s great.

A titanium frame is going to be lighter weight, no doubt. Less options for stainless frame parts so it’s not as much cheaper as you’d think, maybe. Overbuilt steel and Ti ride similarly to me (Ti’s magic gets lost in translation), what’s another negative of stainless vs. Ti?

The big negative of Titanium is the welder/builder has to be 100% on their game when making it. Steel is a significantly more forgiving material and I’ve just seen one too many Ti frames break when/where they shouldn’t have to justify the trust/investment. I LOVE the paint-free program, but I can get that in stainless now, and I’m not concerned about a couple hundred grams here or there.

Yep, I’m a big fan of transparent paint and semi-covered Ti/SS. I was riding in Edmonton last summer and saw two Rollingdales that looked amazing. I think one of them even had couplers, but the paint kept things looking very tidy.

I have heard that the care required for welding a SS frame is also very high - partially because it is hard on tooling. The other negative is that it’s not as corrosion resistant as Ti. My impression was that the super high strength and potentially thin walls of a 953 / maraging SS frame is more of a plus for a road bike and a light rider.

I should speak with Mr. Kruch about the 3D printed stainless (316?) components going into his bikes. If the raw is pretty and the fatigue strength is reasonable something really interesting could be spun up I think.

My Other Ride is Your Dad

Two things...

First, I'm the opposite of a country music fan, but What It Means is a hell of a powerful song from a band I've never heard of. Thanks for that.

Second, I've often thought of how the struggle might go, when Littles start reading off messages from bumper stickers. They're immediately fascinating attention grabbers by design, and it's obvious that some people don't give those messages much thought, past "I'm so clever/edgy". That particular one is neither though, and always gives me some pause for thought when I see it. Weird flex, at the least. One of my favorites has always been "Slow down - Little fuckers up in this bitch", but that probably leads to an equally difficult conversation.

Keep those random thoughts rolling, cheers!

See, now I'm thankful for that Tacoma driver's dumb bumper sticker because it gave us such a charming 'slice of life' post.

Andrew, true story. Over a decade ago my daughter was under 5 and what my daughter said one time when all three of us in the car. Some person was compensating for their lack of something with big pick up and bad driving. Wife comments about them compensating for something small. Next thing we hear from our daughter in the back seat...." Big Truck. No dick'" . Funny now and at the time. No can't recall there rest at the time as was to busy trying not to encourage more. As I recall after Joely and I stopped trying to laugh she said she would talk to our daughter about it later. 

Never underestimate the honesty of a kid under a certain age.

Posted by: mammal

First, I'm the opposite of a country music fan, but What It Means is a hell of a powerful song from a band I've never heard of. Thanks for that.

DBT has a few really powerful songs. I’m happy, genre aside, it was worth the click. 

The song that hooked me is called ‘Putting People On The Moon.’ 

The one benefit of the inflationary pressure we’ve been feeling for years in my household as our real earnings have been eroded by ever more expensive everything, we’re trying to make ever-more out our small living space, trying to provide opportunities for our kid, etc., etc., you know the story… is that I’ve really had to come to terms with that feeling of ‘if it’s hard for us…’ 

Anyway, I discovered the song right around when our favourite cashier at the local grocery store (who’d known Claire since she was a tiny baby) told me one day that she was leaving. She was quite emotional because she had a lot of people between staff and customers but… BUT… the Walmart (Walmart) near her home in SURREY was going to give her better hours, more money, and it meant not transiting from Surrey to North Van everyday. 

Sometimes when I need to change my attitude I put it on and I’m reminded how f***ing good I have it. 

———

Thanks!