MEAT Engines 2023...

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I think any bike with a gearbox followed by the Marin Wolf Ridge still wins the prize for most BroPed looking meat-bikes. The future of gearboxes is integrated with motors - it makes all the sense - but I can't see the tech ever replacing the rear derailleur and appearance is just one reason.

Fair point on the gearbox bikes. I basically consider them performance art as opposed to a viable bicycle product, but it is a cool niche. I guess since gearbox bikes (or the Wolf Ridge, for that matter) have legitimate engineering reasons for looking like e-bikes I feel better about them. “Andrew…has anyone ever told you that you sound just like an EP8 motor when you breathe?”

I agree about the gearbox-motor integration making sense. Perhaps too much sense when one considers the replacement cost of an X01 cassette and AXS derailleur. Those must be so much fun to sell! It seems to be much less like stealth technology for e-bikes right now and more like camouflage - is the concept to make the rest of your line of bikes look terrible so the e-bikers don’t feel bad? I half expect a manufacturer to come out with a card to go in the spokes of their bikes so they can claim the e-bikes aren’t any louder.

What will be interesting is how long it takes for MAMBs to give up on the pedals and just go pegs and throttle. Aside from the obvious benefit of not having to pedal you can do away with the whole gearing system as an electric motor doesn't need a transmission through the range of speeds we are talking about. That will reduce the cost of making the machine considerably. 

I mean the whole pedal assist design is a useful option to ease adoption and get trail access, but ultimately it's got a lot of problematic compromises.

Posted by: Vikb

What will be interesting is how long it takes for MAMBs to give up on the pedals and just go pegs and throttle. Aside from the obvious benefit of not having to pedal you can do away with the whole gearing system as an electric motor doesn't need a transmission through the range of speeds we are talking about. That will reduce the cost of making the machine considerably.

I mean the whole pedal assist design is a useful option to ease adoption and get trail access, but ultimately it's got a lot of problematic compromises.

Know a local guy who had borrowed an eMTb from a shop for a couple of weeks while his meant engine mtb was down waiting for suspension parts. Funny thing is he is an enduro moto head now days and just rides his meat engine mtb for training and fun. He bought a moto trials bike instead of an eMTb as he said it would be more fun then buying an eMTB. And he is still riding the meat engine mtb all the time.

Posted by: Blofeld

I agree about the gearbox-motor integration making sense. Perhaps too much sense when one considers the replacement cost of an X01 cassette and AXS derailleur. Those must be so much fun to sell! 

Selling an AXS derailleur to a rider that is stoked about using a new AXS derailleur is great - just like any other bike part a rider is genuinely stoked about. 

Listening to a rider driving a Model-X and wearing BAO shoes whine about paying the cost of replacing a smashed AXS rear derailleur makes me want to don a Phrygian cap and start a revolution. 

Liberté, Egalité, Vélo De Viande

Posted by: Vikb

What will be interesting is how long it takes for MAMBs to give up on the pedals and just go pegs and throttle. Aside from the obvious benefit of not having to pedal you can do away with the whole gearing system as an electric motor doesn't need a transmission through the range of speeds we are talking about. That will reduce the cost of making the machine considerably. 

I mean the whole pedal assist design is a useful option to ease adoption and get trail access, but ultimately it's got a lot of problematic compromises.

There’s no a reason a pedal assisted fatmobile needs 12 speeds, either. Except maybe if the battery dies in the woods! My opinion is that being able to sell a $500 replacement cassette to someone after they’ve burnt out the 10t and 12t is marketing genius. What would a steel SS cog or freewheel cost, $40? 

I‘m boggled when ebikers tell me their machine solves a problem that a bike or a motorcycle didn’t already solve much more elegantly. The only novelty an ebike provides is a means to ride a motorcycle on a bike path or trail. I haven’t been personally annoyed by this in the wild, which perhaps only means I’m happier on my bike than on the internet.

“I’m Happier On My Bike Than On The Internet” is a great motto. Sticker worthy even.

Posted by: Blofeld

The only novelty an ebike provides is a means to ride a motorcycle on a bike path or trail. 

That's the whole point right there ^^^.  Once access is normalized for motors on what were hiking/mountain bike trails it's an easy step to say there are a few people who can't pedal an Class 1 e-bike and you shouldn't be an elitist gate keeper so pegs and throttles need to be allowed for everyone. If you assume the same motor power/speed limits there is no rational argument why it matters if the throttle is activated by the leg or the arm. You can find some small class of people who can't move around the forest without this help. So why discriminate against the leg-assist challenged?

So much eMTB lamenting in the MEAT Engines thread... you guys should start a Beyond Meat Engines thread in our new eMTB forum! ;-)

Posted by: [email protected]

So much eMTB lamenting in the MEAT Engines thread... you guys should start a Beyond Meat Engines thread in our new eMTB forum! ;-)

There's sort of a funny 'off' juxtaposition in even having an exclusive eMTB forum - at this point in the game - when the thing that's being lamented is the progressing erosion of a distinction between a person pedaling and power-assist.

Even if Vik is wrong and class-1 Pedelecs is where it ends for most folks (would you take that bet?), plug-ins are still tipping over 50/50 in many places both for new bike sales and what's being seen on the trails. No, not on the North Shore yet but I don't know a person working in shops who's thinking that self-powered mountain biking won't be in the minority here not that far into the future.

Maybe a separate forum for the elitists and the poors would have been a more future focused addition? ;-)

Moving on from the moto assist privilege arguments....

New frame going Dirtbag build with old parts and at least one retro part. And with one Andrew Major inspired change.

The Dirtbag headset press before Amazon offered them for $40.  LOL

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: [email protected]

So much eMTB lamenting in the MEAT Engines thread... you guys should start a Beyond Meat Engines thread in our new eMTB forum! ;-)

There's sort of a funny 'off' juxtaposition in even having an exclusive eMTB forum - at this point in the game - when the thing that's being lamented is the progressing erosion of a distinction between a person pedaling and power-assist.

Even if Vik is wrong and class-1 Pedelecs is where it ends for most folks (would you take that bet?), plug-ins are still tipping over 50/50 in many places both for new bike sales and what's being seen on the trails. No, not on the North Shore yet but I don't know a person working in shops who's thinking that self-powered mountain biking won't be in the minority here not that far into the future.

Maybe a separate forum for the elitists and the poors would have been a more future focused addition? ;-)

FWIW our fearless leaders asked to add the eMTB forum. I don't really have an opinion on whether it adds value or not. So far it doesn't get a lot of traction.

As for myself, eMTBs are barely a blip on my radar. Blissful ignorance, perhaps.

Posted by: Vikb

What will be interesting is how long it takes for MAMBs to give up on the pedals and just go pegs and throttle. Aside from the obvious benefit of not having to pedal you can do away with the whole gearing system as an electric motor doesn't need a transmission through the range of speeds we are talking about. That will reduce the cost of making the machine considerably.

I mean the whole pedal assist design is a useful option to ease adoption and get trail access, but ultimately it's got a lot of problematic compromises.

Vik, a book I am reading right now has an interesting statement in it that has an interesting thought about marketing. Later today when I get home I will dig it up.

Posted by: Endurimil
New frame going Dirtbag build with old parts and at least one retro part. And with one Andrew Major inspired change.

The Dirtbag headset press before Amazon offered them for $40.  LOL

That’s exciting! Hopefully the weather cooperates so there aren’t further delays between getting it built and riding it.

I like the DIY headset press. It looks perfect for pressfit bb installs, too! Although seeing the plates in the other photo makes me think such contrivances are completely unnecessary. ;-) 

Seriously though, I’m surprised Chromag hasn’t wilted under the media pressure and gone to BSA. That’s not to say I think there’s anything wrong with BB92 and a 24mm axle…

Posted by: [email protected]

So much eMTB lamenting in the MEAT Engines thread... you guys should start a Beyond Meat Engines thread in our new eMTB forum! ;-)

I’m replying to this only because I’d like to see Andrew’s ‘bikefurky’ term written out one more time. Moreover, if you’re suggesting this forum is an echo chamber you couldn’t be more wrong. In fact, there was very nearly a disagreement about the FC:RC ratios on our steel hardtails only a few weeks ago!