On tire pressure gauges, anyone using digital ones? I bought the Topeak D2 on sale for $30 a few months ago and was surprised that it reads lower than my Joe Blow floor pump (that I've been using since 2014) by 4-5psi or so. I had thought I was running 25/29psi (Maxxis Assegai/DHRII DoubleDown, mullet setup, 215lbs before gearing up) but seems more like 21/25 which seems low given I don't hear my rear rim all that often. Not sure if the Topeak is off or not. I am leaving it in my shed where it's cold so maybe that impacts it?
MEAT Engines 2023...
Posted by: Endurimil
Andrew, forgot to ask earlier. Dammed memory issues. You mentioned that a certain North Shore Mayor has stated something about cyclists should be wearing armour to prevent harm. Is there any links to this? Have an attorney friend who is archiving crap like this .
Posted by: grambo
On tire pressure gauges, anyone using digital ones? I bought the Topeak D2 on sale for $30 a few months ago and was surprised that it reads lower than my Joe Blow floor pump (that I've been using since 2014) by 4-5psi or so. I had thought I was running 25/29psi (Maxxis Assegai/DHRII DoubleDown, mullet setup, 215lbs before gearing up) but seems more like 21/25 which seems low given I don't hear my rear rim all that often. Not sure if the Topeak is off or not. I am leaving it in my shed where it's cold so maybe that impacts it?
Are any gauges truly accurate? Everyone seems to stick with one and rely on consistency over absolute facts.
Posted by: cooperquinn
Posted by: Endurimil
Andrew, forgot to ask earlier. Dammed memory issues. You mentioned that a certain North Shore Mayor has stated something about cyclists should be wearing armour to prevent harm. Is there any links to this? Have an attorney friend who is archiving crap like this .
Thanks. So according to this vote chasing BS grinding expert if I had worn the correct gloves in 2019 wouldn't be on year 4 of this saga? Brilliant.
That's *MAYOR* BS grinding expert to you, sir.
Posted by: cooperquinn
That's *MAYOR* BS grinding expert to you, sir.
Posted by: cooperquinn
That's *MAYOR* BS grinding expert to you, sir.
You mean someone who as a public figure basically says cyclists lives are worthless. And Mayor maybe be the title but past that see nothing worth acknowldeging past that.
Posted by: Jotegir
Two seasons on the vibrocore rims. They're amazing. In the time I've owned the vibrocores I've done in somewhere between 4-6 carbon rims (and 2 'regular' alloy ones too) - praise the lifetime warranty, but it's at the point now where I am thinking of getting another set of vibrocore rims for my enduro bike. I don't feel good about committing all these rims to be thrown into the ocean.
That said, the Aurum HSP's rear axle path means it's a lot less hard on rims for damage from impacts and rim strikes than my normal axle path bikes. It's a obvious and stark difference. I skipped the DH specific rear hub because the Aurum runs standard boost spacing. A cassette and front hub end cap swap and I've got maybe one of the most reliable wheel setups available on the enduro bike in a few beers work should a particular trip or event demand it.
I'm thinking I need to set up a non-vibrocore, light-but-decently-durable alloy wheelset to run with inserts when appropriate. Carbon wheels and inserts do not mix - when I run a carbon wheel with an insert, other than my Bontrager Line Pro 40s, they manage to break almost instantly. Maybe I should do vibrocore AND insert for ultimate in durability, weight be damned. I managed to ding up a bontrager alloy rim (notably buttery, honestly) at 32 PSI through a cushcore on a fast weekend at the bike park (not on the DH bike) bad enough it's on winter bike duty now until a rebuild happens.
Thanks for the testimonial on the Spank Vibrocore rims. I’ll definitely look at them next time I’m shopping for a 30mm rim. I scrolled through some of the marketing and original reviews for these rims, it’s interesting that they didn’t claim any impact strength benefits relative to their unfilled counterparts. It made me wonder about how strong this shape would be if they added 60g of aluminum instead of foam?
I am boggled regarding your insert and carbon rim failures. Did the broken carbon rims happen to be Bontrager as well? I know some people who had a pile of Treks and the Bontrager carbon wheels basically qualified as single use plastics. The only other thing I can think of with an insert is if they were rim bead failures where installation damage and/or lateral pressure from the tight fit weakened things internally. Hmmm.
The NSMB review itself mentions the solid durability! If it's not based on rim shape/etc, I'd have to think the foam filling adds durability in the sense that there's no hollow space for aluminum material to go when you impact the rim badly. Whether or not they're more durable than Spank's other offerings (which I recall being quite durable as well, but it's been a few years since I've ran them) is still another question, but they're certainly the strongest and most reliable rim I've ran in years, alongside the colossal Bontrager Line Pro 40's.
Most of the carbon rims have been bontragers, yes, but two destroyed by inserts weren't. I've done in 5 carbon wheels with inserts in them and one carbon wheel without -although the one without is just a very mild delamination and rode fine for several weeks until the replacement arrived. Of those without inserts, two were hairline cracks and three were catastrophic rimplosions. Using both Cushcore and Tannus tubeless. Without inserts, the Bontrager carbon rims seem to be very durable. I ran a set of Kovees (the XC rim) for years of hard abuse doing not-xc-things and the only issue sans-insert was the mild delamination. As soon as I started running inserts regularly on the trail bikes the wheels started to go bye-bye with incedible frequency. I will note though, I am very hard on wheels - my previous alloy rear wheel on the DH bike had fatigue cracks along many of the spoke nipple holes.
Carbon rims and inserts don't really mix well. You won't hear too many wheel companies state this publically though, they want people to think they can run them with inserts without issue because that's good for sales. It's been explained to me that in a carbon rim, they're precisely controlling material strength and depth, and they're designed around the impact of a tire on the very strong part of the rim, not a foam insert moving the impact forces from the strong rim wall to the soft rim center. If you look at the catastrophic failures of my carbon rims, from my layperson perspective it appears consistent with this explanation. Per We are One's Dustin Adams (someone who I trust to know about carbon rims):
"With the pressure from the insert, the rim doesn’t bend and move as well as it should. We’ve seen [inserts] have negative impacts on the longevity of a rim, where the rim is taking more hits, and if we focused on a little more PSI we would have less."
A friend of mine cracked a We are One rim with the Vittoria pool noodle-like insert and was told at the factory that they weren't really meant for inserts - this is not consistent with other statements WAO has put out more recently, other than the above quote, however.
Last edited by: Jotegir on Jan. 5, 2023, 9:31 a.m., edited 2 times in total.
Were the Bontrager carbon rims you were breaking older models, or are we talking about the latest generation rims? In addition to my solid experience (not running inserts) I've heard nothing but good things about the latest generation Line Carbon rims.
Inserts like CushCore or Tannus or the Vittoria you mention shouldn't be an issue for any carbon rims. They're damping impacts and the force is spread over a wide area of the spoke bed and then also the sidewalls of the rim/tire as the insert is squished. I've talked to a few carbon rim manufacturers and this has been the consensus.
A notably different product/exception is ProCore, or ProCore-like, insert setups, where you are moving all the bottom-out force from the tire/sidewalls of the rim to a concentrated section of the spoke bed. ProCore.
Posted by: cooperquinn
That's *MAYOR* BS grinding expert to you, sir.
To the winner go the conspiracy theories... I'm far from the only one who has noted the contrast in the general cleanliness/detritus clearance of bike lanes and the specific snow removal from bike lanes between the DNV and CNV has become significantly larger since your friend Mike was re-elected. Not that the DNV is ever fantastic, but the last time I rode to work the increased flat potential in the DNV was the clearest border delineation between the two communities since I moved here.
Posted by: AndrewMajor
Posted by: cooperquinn
That's *MAYOR* BS grinding expert to you, sir.
To the winner go the conspiracy theories... I'm far from the only one who has noted the contrast in the general cleanliness/detritus clearance of bike lanes and the specific snow removal from bike lanes between the DNV and CNV has become significantly larger since your friend Mike was re-elected. Not that the DNV is ever fantastic, but the last time I rode to work the increased flat potential in the DNV was the clearest border delineation between the two communities since I moved here.
Have a friend a week and a half ago who was physically assaulted by a driver. Reason? The driver deemed that he wasn’t far enough in the bike lane according to the DIQ so that was why he passed him, pulled over blocking the bike lane, and then go out to take a swing at him.
Posted by: AndrewMajor
Were the Bontrager carbon rims you were breaking older models, or are we talking about the latest generation rims? In addition to my solid experience (not running inserts) I've heard nothing but good things about the latest generation Line Carbon rims.
Inserts like CushCore or Tannus or the Vittoria you mention shouldn't be an issue for any carbon rims. They're damping impacts and the force is spread over a wide area of the spoke bed and then also the sidewalls of the rim/tire as the insert is squished. I've talked to a few carbon rim manufacturers and this has been the consensus.
A notably different product/exception is ProCore, or ProCore-like, insert setups, where you are moving all the bottom-out force from the tire/sidewalls of the rim to a concentrated section of the spoke bed. ProCore.
Current gen Bonty stuff. Replacement rim after repalcement rim. They love me. Want me to take a picture of my dead bontrager wheel pile? It's pretty big. At least they're giving me a solid supply of reasonable quality hubs for years to come (they send whole wheels if you explode rims within the first two years of ownership).
I've read that about the foam based inserts, yet still have issues nearly exclusively with carbon rims and these inserts. Running solid air pressure too. I did two at whislter bike park on closing weekend 2021, tannus front and rear, on a 2021/22 Norco Range - these were both hairline cracks and not catastrophic explosions. I rode the day out on em'.
I did two this fall, one at Whistler and one at Sun Peaks on my Instict, one on Tannus and one with Cushcore. Both rear. At Whistler I did a warm up lap on Crank it Up with the girlfriend and then wanted to do a HOT lap of In Deep, one of my favourite trails in the world I hadn't had a chance to ride in like 18 months at that point. The rim broke in a semi-explodey manner through a fast straight tech section after the triple hump. Hole in the top sheet and on both sides of the rim sidewall. Wasn't in multiple pieces but it couldn't hold air anymore. I was pissed too - ruined my one Whistler day I got that year, and it was a *brand new* tire on a *brand new* rim and it died on the first real lap... after already losing two rims that year (and two more at the end of the season before). And I was already annoyed by the boatloads of people just.. standing in groups across the trail. It was weird.
The other one was at Sun Peaks, near the bottom of Sweet One. Same sort of thing, fast trail rim strike. This time the rim made it into the spokes, had to walk it out - took a lot of paint out with it too, sadly. It was also on the first day I set it up. I can't recall the third one at the moment, but it was on an E13 rim (it's not in the heap, they asked for it back). But also with an insert!
I have felt all the rear ones happen. It happens on a rock-strike-rim-bottom-out event through a fast but not particularly steep tech section, but never on the really bad bottom outs. Like just the little rim kiss sort of ones caused the pretty major mishaps. They didn't feel like the ones that would leave a big dent in an alloy rim plus insert combo... I know what that feels like too, haha.
My line pro 40s are from 2018 and are flawless still, even with the Tannus insert (not from 2018). There's just so much fricking carbon and structural rigidity from the 40mm internal width, I've barely had to get a spoke wrench out to true them! Also generally very happy with the rims sans inserts. There's a reason I kept picking them up.
So needless to say it was a rough season and a half for carbon rims. This is after a couple years of being nice to wheels, except the occasional alloy fatigue related issue.
Last edited by: Jotegir on Jan. 5, 2023, 1:37 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
Very interesting. Clearly they have no concerns honouring the warranty despite you running inserts? The garbage though…
My experience breaking carbon rims is they always fail on nothing - but I know I broke them previously. Not that I’m a wheel breaker - I probably represent the average use case for most rims just with a fair number of miles. No bike park, which really does put the descending miles on.
For me once inserts are involved (especially at the weight of CushCore) I don’t see any advantage to carbon. They’re still stiffer, sure, but carbon rim companies are putting a lot of effort into engineering compliance, so does that matter?
Anywho, don’t need a photo - I was just curious as I know how much effort they put into beefing up the latest generation rims.
That is a brutal run on wheels! The WR1 rim with the Vittoria insert makes the least sense to me out of all of them. Would the reduction in air volume offer less protection in some way? And yes, I would love to see some photos.
The Bontragers I heard about that were replaced on warranty were 2021 Line Pro and Line Elites in the ~30mm width. I don’t think they were used with an insert. This is hearsay, but I’ll be watching for a recall notice now.
Posted by: AndrewMajor
Very interesting. Clearly they have no concerns honouring the warranty despite you running inserts? The garbage though…
My experience breaking carbon rims is they always fail on nothing - but I know I broke them previously. Not that I’m a wheel breaker - I probably represent the average use case for most rims just with a fair number of miles. No bike park, which really does put the descending miles on.
For me once inserts are involved (especially at the weight of CushCore) I don’t see any advantage to carbon. They’re still stiffer, sure, but carbon rim companies are putting a lot of effort into engineering compliance, so does that matter?
Anywho, don’t need a photo - I was just curious as I know how much effort they put into beefing up the latest generation rims.
No, not at all. I still stand by the statement that Trek warranty is the best in the biz*. They actually offer a two year "no questions asked" carbon wheel explosion policy, so I am not sure they ever did an actual warranty evaluation for any of my wheels. I saw them OK an original owner who melted a carbon hoop on the exhaust of a car. They didn't even ask questions that time (although I am sure they wanted to).
*all non-DTC warranty depends on your LBS
The last time I had a rim failure, I submitted my claim and then phoned the warranty guys because I wanted to chat about inserts. I basically said "this keeps happening to me, but only with inserts. What do you recommend"? They're usually quite forthcoming with information but the fellow I had on the phone was rather cagey about whether I was to run inserts or not. He did set me up with the top of the line wheels though, so that was nice. As I said before, I think it would be bad business to say it's not recommended.
I've been running inserts with carbon because the carbon came first. Trek makes the staff deal wheel price so attractive that it's impossible to look elsewhere. Their entry level staff deal price is within striking distance of a staff deal price of a high end set of alloy wheels. I got tired of truing wheels all the time and carbon rims (and vibrocore with nipple washers! shout out!) really cut the wheel maintenance in a dramatic way. Pre carbon/vibrocore, I'd have to spend a decent amount of time on the truing stand after every full park day. Even if its only for a few minutes each time, it gets tiring.
I think I am going to build a set of alloy wheels using some of the many hubs bontrager has so generously donated to me for insert duty. I don't want to put more hoops in the ocean, and at this point I feel like I am making a significant personal contribution. Lol.
Posted by: Blofeld
That is a brutal run on wheels! The WR1 rim with the Vittoria insert makes the least sense to me out of all of them. Would the reduction in air volume offer less protection in some way? And yes, I would love to see some photos.
The Bontragers I heard about that were replaced on warranty were 2021 Line Pro and Line Elites in the ~30mm width. I don’t think they were used with an insert. This is hearsay, but I’ll be watching for a recall notice now.
I don't anticipate a recall notice coming out, unless you have better knowledge that I do at this point. I have broken more bontrager carbon wheels than anyone else who has come through the door in the shop. By maybe double? I think I might have tied what we did as busy dealer in total this season. Keep in mind that Trek is moving absolute boatloads of carbon Line wheels as they've come on pretty much every 9.8 or 9.9 bike across the board for a number of years now in addition to whatever they do in aftermarket. That's thousands of these things coming into BC each year, and we only did a handful outside of what I personally did after dozens and dozens of 9.8 level bikes going out over the years since they started offering them OEM. As I said, without inserts - they seem to be very good.
With respect to WR1, that was some time ago now - I don't even think they were offering a handlebar at the time. You can't buy that rim anymore and I think they've since changed their tune (in addition to their layup process and designs, at least once) on inserts somewhat - at least publicly. I wouldn't worry about it too much, it was just what we were told when we dropped the wheel off back then - they still honoured the warranty too as it seemed to be more of a 'recommendation'.
And because you requested, here's the photo. Now that I see it, the number of wheels is 7. I had forgotten there was one wheel I've already taken the hub from (plus one non-bonty that got sent back) so it didn't make the photo.
Last edited by: Jotegir on Jan. 5, 2023, 6:02 p.m., edited 2 times in total.
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