MEAT Engines 2023...

the trinity / wrp DIAB is pretty neat, but they do take up a fair amount of real estate (which constrains frame design), and though they use standard cassettes, there's still a bunch of proprietary moving (wear) bits required to make them work. again, you're running into hurdles that offset the benefits considerably. but cool to see development in the field, regardless. 

the conventional drivetrain is just so ridiculously refined currently, it's really hard to beat the balance of efficiency / weight / durability / price.  

which, of course, wasn't always the case. my initial interest in gearboxes (~20yrs ago) was sparked because mech drivetrains were relatively not great. we've come a ways since then...

Posted by: cooperquinn

"i don't see widespread conventional adoption on the horizon."

Exactly. Hundreds of years of industry, automobiles, and motorcycles have been unable to overcome the fundamental problem with gearboxes - power loss & efficiency. Our meagre meat engines can't deal with the same kinds of losses that are tolerable when a motor is involved; it'd be sweet but I'm not sure its more than fantasy to think the bicycle industry is somehow going to engineer through this problem suddenly.

Yeah, it's true. I just want a Nicolai + 'box + sprinkling of efficency fairy dust. 

(this could be misinterpreted as a motor. I don't want a motor).

Posted by: fartymarty

My big question is where do bikes go from here? Lighter? More travel? Supre Drive??? The gearbox is the elephant in the room. I could see a Honda type box taking off - mech in a box is going to be efficient.

i'm thinking a majority of R&D resources are going to be dumped into e-things. motor, battery, and gearbox integrated (into e-bike) tech, as well as more integrated / electric / auto shifting shifting systems, e-droppers, and more electronically actuated dampers, and perhaps even a stab at antilock braking. batteries everywhere, i'm afraid.

Posted by: xy9ine

…and perhaps even a stab at antilock braking. batteries everywhere, i'm afraid.

Magura & Bosch have already collaborated on an anti-lock brake system: https://www.magura-abs-components.com/en

Apparently it’s quite rad on e-cargo bikes. I’d believe it as my meat-powered Bakfiets loaded up with Claire and I and coming down steep hills required a wicked-perfect touch on the big-rotor DH brakes to keep everything straight and control speed at the same time.

———

Yes, ‘batteries now included’ is the name of the game. To tubeless valves and beyond.

Posted by: Vikb

Anniversary

Congrats on making it a full year since you got hurt and recovered Andrew. That was a shitty injury to deal with. Here's to a healthy remainder of 2023 and all of 2024!

Thank you Vik!

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Posted by: Vikb

Anniversary

Congrats on making it a full year since you got hurt and recovered Andrew. That was a shitty injury to deal with. Here's to a healthy remainder of 2023 and all of 2024!

Thank you Vik!

Second what Vik said.

A little different meat engines fun. If you rode in BC in the early 1990's you would recognize the name Mike Traslin.

https://www.mountainlifemedia.ca/2023/09/backyard-mtb-mission-kuipers-peak/?fbclid=IwAR0KxMnu4fotSTH7FbpTvq34p1o_8_83rgWvmuZ-SCDZUztCWpErVDA_Gwo

Posted by: tashi

Posted by: fartymarty

My big question is where do bikes go from here?  Lighter?  More travel?  Supre Drive???  The gearbox is the elephant in the room.  I could see a Honda type box taking off - mech in a box is going to be efficient.

Ya a tiny chain, cog stack and derailleur plus a lube bath in a sealed box may just be the middle ground we’re looking for.

This is what I'm thinking - like the Trinity / Honda box with a smaller pitch chain and smaller cogs.

Posted by: fartymarty

My big question is where do bikes go from here?  Lighter?  More travel?  Supre Drive???  The gearbox is the elephant in the room.  I could see a Honda type box taking off - mech in a box is going to be efficient.

I haven’t thought about what sort of losses a DiaB or Supre would experience. Interesting question! If an idler is 2% less efficient than a direct chainline, I’d guess Supre would have losses in the 3-4% range? I don’t necessarily think a DiaB would be much better than a Pinion depending on how many extra shafts and gears are in the driveline.

So if the almost perfect gearbox came along, but it suffered a little bit of drag/inefficiency, and to compensate it had a small motor meant just to overcome that drag, would meaters be willing to ride it or would it still be a hard no. There could be two version, a full on ebike version and a meat version. The meat version would supply just enough power to overcome the mechanical inefficiency of the gearbox. That would allow manufacturers to build two bikes, one powered and one not, on the same chassis. Could that be the future?

Posted by: syncro

So if the almost perfect gearbox came along, but it suffered a little bit of drag/inefficiency, and to compensate it had a small motor meant just to overcome that drag, would meaters be willing to ride it or would it still be a hard no. There could be two version, a full on ebike version and a meat version. The meat version would supply just enough power to overcome the mechanical inefficiency of the gearbox. That would allow manufacturers to build two bikes, one powered and one not, on the same chassis. Could that be the future?

You're selling a slippery slope.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: syncro

So if the almost perfect gearbox came along, but it suffered a little bit of drag/inefficiency, and to compensate it had a small motor meant just to overcome that drag, would meaters be willing to ride it or would it still be a hard no. There could be two version, a full on ebike version and a meat version. The meat version would supply just enough power to overcome the mechanical inefficiency of the gearbox. That would allow manufacturers to build two bikes, one powered and one not, on the same chassis. Could that be the future?

You're selling a slippery slope.

Meat only for me.  I don't want electronics on my bikes.

I'd take a few % losses - no worse than a heavy sticky rear tyre.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Posted by: syncro

So if the almost perfect gearbox came along, but it suffered a little bit of drag/inefficiency, and to compensate it had a small motor meant just to overcome that drag, would meaters be willing to ride it or would it still be a hard no. There could be two version, a full on ebike version and a meat version. The meat version would supply just enough power to overcome the mechanical inefficiency of the gearbox. That would allow manufacturers to build two bikes, one powered and one not, on the same chassis. Could that be the future?

You're selling a slippery slope.

Yup, just thinking out loud as I often do. If the complaint about gearboxes  from a pedaling perspective is drag, then there’s a way to fix that with a small (tiny) motor. Whether it’s worth it from a meat perspective is up for debate tho. 

There are things about gearboxes that are a definite plus over deraileurs, but I don’t know if they’re enough to make the switch worth it. I still run 2x9 on my trail bike; it gives me great gear range, good chainline and the ability to replace the drivetrain (cassette, chainrings and chain) for a vey low price. I think it will be somewhat ironic if e-bikes push gearbox develop to the point where they make sense for meat bikes.

Posted by: fartymarty

Meat only for me.  I don't want electronics on my bikes.

I'd take a few % losses - no worse than a heavy sticky rear tyre.

There is definitely a certain beauty that comes from a simple mechanical setup, especially if that’s single/dingle speed, that can’t be beat by electronic wizardry.