MEAT Engines 2023...

"It's all in the front of my mind as I just pulled my friction-shifter 9-speed drivetrain off my Rifty - derailleur, cassette, shifter, crankset, ring - to install an example of the latest-and-greatest that I'm reviewing for NSMB.com. It promises to deliver the wide-range, indexed many-speed, clutch-quieted, narrow-wide-ring retained drivetrain expectations of current riders but uses the HG-freehub standard released around 1980 and the BSA BB standard released sometime in pre-history. "

Alright, you've got my attention. My 12s experiences have been lukewarm at best so far. The currently reigning champion of suitable low gear vs most usable gearing gaps vs cost vs not fussy recently has been Advent X, but I'm hoping for some other option just to see what's out there.

Posted by: mrbrett

Alright, you've got my attention. My 12s experiences have been lukewarm at best so far. The currently reigning champion of suitable low gear vs most usable gearing gaps vs cost vs not fussy recently has been Advent X, but I'm hoping for some other option just to see what's out there.

Lots (plenty? many?) reports out there that MicroShift quality has dipped significantly, that’s from fans of the drivetrains and from neutral folks working on it. Not that there aren’t people having great Advent-X experiences it’s just that if two people’s experiences are wildly apart that may not be down to the riders/their expectations.

This is a significantly higher upfront cost with the promise of much higher performance and also value delivered through longevity rather than good-enough-for-cheap-enough.

Not meaning to be cloak-and-dagger just working on first impressions.

Small nitpick, calling 10t-compatible freehub designs "standards". IMHO one company open sourcing their own freehub design for other to use doesn't make it a standard. Ideally, experts from across the industry come together to decide on the best way to do something and declare that the standard. Second best case, something gets adopted industry wide, I'm prepared to call that a de facto standard.

Posted by: [email protected]

Small nitpick, calling 10t-compatible freehub designs "standards". IMHO one company open sourcing their own freehub design for other to use doesn't make it a standard. Ideally, experts from across the industry come together to decide on the best way to do something and declare that the standard. Second best case, something gets adopted industry wide, I'm prepared to call that a de facto standard.

I know strongly now days believe half the bike “industry standards” have far less to do with actual advancement to improve things and far more to do with advancement created by marketing type bullshit grinder actuaries to sell more shit.

This HG article was a fun trip back to ~10 years ago when most of the “innovations” mentioned were newly marketed to the mtb world. It seems like it was always the same story, usually centred around a few grams of weight savings here or a relative stiffness gain there (as measured on a chart with no units). How else do you even justify a new product? In some respect I feel like the efficiency counter-argument for a 10t vs 11t cog is splitting a couple watts and basically doing the same thing that the marketeers were guilty of when pushing the new standards in the first place.

On the other hand, I’m all about relative gains and splitting watts - there’s so little improvement otherwise! I was trying to find the Friction-Facts white paper that measured chainring/cog sizes and offset efficiency, but it looks like the site is down. Some of the web reviews are still available. My summary was switching from Boeshield to Squirt makes a bigger difference in efficiency than cross chaining or cog variation.

Posted by: [email protected]

Small nitpick, calling 10t-compatible freehub designs "standards". IMHO one company open sourcing their own freehub design for other to use doesn't make it a standard. Ideally, experts from across the industry come together to decide on the best way to do something and declare that the standard. Second best case, something gets adopted industry wide, I'm prepared to call that a de facto standard.

There are at least a few different understandings of what 'a standard' is; however, in my thinking HG, XD, and MS are all standards (as are XDR, HG12, etc.) in that a hub manufacturer can build a compatible product to spec. Same goes for post mount or flat mount brakes, etc.

There are significantly more performance mountain bikes, hubs, and wheelsets being sold now with MS and XD drivers than HG, so those two systems are the dominant standards. 

I suppose instead they could be called systems? But yeah, that's a true nitpick - which I appreciate.

This would be interesting to some.

https://bikepacking.com/news/frxbl-thumbster/

Shimano and SRAM have enough market share to impose their will on us with new "standard" specifications without consulting anyone else. They just need tacit agreement from other market participants. The "market" could, in theory, say no if riders and OEMs largely refused to buy the new product design. But in practice we "de facto" agree to it as we buy lots of the product and make it a "standard". 

We could call them De Facto Standard Specifications or DFSS, but I don't think the bike industry needs more techno babble or acronyms. ;-)

Posted by: AndrewMajor

There are at least a few different understandings of what 'a standard' is; however, in my thinking HG, XD, and MS are all standards (as are XDR, HG12, etc.) in that a hub manufacturer can build a compatible product to spec. Same goes for post mount or flat mount brakes, etc.

There are significantly more performance mountain bikes, hubs, and wheelsets being sold now with MS and XD drivers than HG, so those two systems are the dominant standards. 

I suppose instead they could be called systems? But yeah, that's a true nitpick - which I appreciate.

Yeah I'm mostly just being pedantic. I'd call them different designs. At least Sram open sourced XD, I'd be willing to concede in that case and call it an open standard. AFAIK Microspline is still proprietary and must be licensed from Shimano.

I'll admit to stripping out one of the first MS lockrings I worked on. Fortunately it was mine and was due to some late night wrenching and not a customer's ride at the shop - after hundreds, if not thousands of combined XD and HG installs. 

The sad thing was there were no replacements available until YEARS later (seriously, I think they're still backordered). Fortunately, I turned to my unfortunatley growing source of weird odds and ends for cheap - aliexpress. sorted in a couple weeks for about 6 CAD including shipping.

Posted by: Jotegir

I'll admit to stripping out one of the first MS lockrings I worked on. Fortunately it was mine and was due to some late night wrenching and not a customer's ride at the shop - after hundreds, if not thousands of combined XD and HG installs.

I'll take that as a warning and be careful.

Apologies to Andrew, but my Rifty arrived with more gears, and I'm yet to investigate if a HG driver is even available for the wheel. I'm also enjoying the climbing gears, the 33-39-45-51 is very flattering when facing the a steep climb in the crazy humidity we've been having.

To mollify somewhat, the lock ons came off, and the spray paint and wire went on yesterday.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

To mollify somewhat, the lock ons came off, and the spray paint and wire went on yesterday.

That's going to be a colourful rig! Enjoy the Rifty!

My HG driver arrived in the mail today for my new to me Chromag wheels.

Posted by: velocipedestrian

Apologies to Andrew, but my Rifty arrived with more gears, and I'm yet to investigate if a HG driver is even available for the wheel. I'm also enjoying the climbing gears, the 33-39-45-51 is very flattering when facing the a steep climb in the crazy humidity we've been having.

To mollify somewhat, the lock ons came off, and the spray paint and wire went on yesterday.

Works Components angleset in Teal Blue?! I'm very much enjoying the colour mashup. Pictures of the whole Rifty pending? 

What hub do you have?