MEAT Engines 2023...

Posted by: thaaad

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Then I had a kid and became a full time parent - part time everything else - and even though I still ride, wrench, and now write about bikes the obsession never feels as sharp-edged as it used to.

I really really feel this lately, the "burn" just isn't there. Just part of getting older? Or just getting tired-er? Different priorities now?

I dunno.

I mean, I’m still getting out a lot with both Claire and friends. I’m in the woods 4-5 days a week and love it. It’s my favourite thing and my perfect day still has a ride, or two, involved.

It’s more I don’t need to push myself the same, or ride as far, or do another lap. And maybe some of that is down to age but I have buddies twenty years older who are still chasing cars if you know what I mean.

Riding itself is more fun than it’s ever been. 

———

I think my biggest cooling off is with bikes themselves, we’ve reached this beautiful place where innovation is granular and the ‘big’ things - like wireless shifting, slightly bigger stanchions, etc - don’t change the overall experience. You could pull a NOS 2020 Stumpy Evo out of a box a decade from now, swap the rubber and bleed the brakes and suspension and go ride with any meat-powered rider you can find.

My V2 is the first time ever I haven't been thinking about my next bike. My Rifty is so fun but it’s a little short on travel to be the FS equivalent for around here, but such a machine probably exists If I really wanted to boil it down.

I take it a step farther. If I was back working in a shop full time, or doing something else entirely, I’d only have the V2 for mountain biking. I’d have the 120mm R7 ready to go with a second set of wheels. I’d have a multi-speed drivetrain I could pop on at a moments notice (which would likely never get used). I’d just be out on that doing my thing.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I think my biggest cooling off is with bikes themselves, we’ve reached this beautiful place where innovation is granular and the ‘big’ things - like wireless shifting, slightly bigger stanchions, etc - don’t change the overall experience. You could pull a NOS 2020 Stumpy Evo out of a box a decade from now, swap the rubber and bleed the brakes and suspension and go ride with any meat-powered rider you can find.

Funny felt the same way for a long time about all the innovation. In a book got in December spotted this observation...while running focused it struck a nerve with me about stuff coming from the bike company bullshit grinders.  

Posted by: AndrewMajor

...I have buddies twenty years older who are still chasing cars if you know what I mean.

😂

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Whoa, do you think we've  arrived then? Hmm, and you may be right. 

Occasionally I still feel like I need a new full blown long travel bike for irrational big hucks, but that's just habit reflex after riding bikes like that for so long. Chasing cars. 

Truth is my silly Norco 125mm is probably 100% adequate. Can't remember ever being fine with everything about a bike I've owned in my entire life actually. Weird...

Welp, since we've arrived we might as well turn around and start heading back then. Retrace our steps back to the shores of the primordial ooze.

Think I'm going to wade in and grab a steel fully rigid.

Posted by: Hepcat

Can't remember ever being fine with everything about a bike I've owned in my entire life actually. Weird...

It is the strangest thing really. I'm at a point where my Walt is almost dialed. I'm still playing around with bar-stem a bit for fun. I'm happy to test some different stuff. Maybe I'll put on a slightly harder gear for Cumberlandworx - but I don't feel any need to do that stuff, I'm just a nerd. If you told me I had to just ride the bike forever and only replace stuff that wears out / do service I'd be cool with that.

It's weird. And it's cool.

I actually did sit down and imagine a V3 because I'm very, very, into the idea of a stainless steel frame and fork but the changes I'd make are so minuscule that it would only be an exercise in material.

Whoa, do you think we've arrived then? Hmm, and you may be right.

...

Welp, since we've arrived we might as well turn around and start heading back then. Retrace our steps back to the shores of the primordial ooze.

Think I'm going to wade in and grab a steel fully rigid.

I don't think there's a destination. It's more that we're sitting in Cache Creek at Junction coffee house trying to choose a direction. But everyone has their own car, so it's a case of choosing your own adventure from say three obvious directions and then seeing who you know when you get there.

Take what we've learned about geometry, brakes, and rubber and do a 180° back the way we came with modern rigid single-speed. Or maybe stop along the way - #1FG hardtail, multi-speed hardtail, PIY full suspension bike. It's making the choice to remove yourself from the direction the mountain bicycle industry (brands, shops, etc) is moving the activity. Not that all those options won't be well supported, or at least supported (29+ rubber being my one concern).

Or, you can get on the light e-bike train that the industry's biggest players are investing in. The Fuel EXe is the best example but there are many options coming. Virtually silent and the highest-end builds aren't far off a lower-end PIY bike in terms of weight. Plenty of bonus juice for when you want to go full-Nino and enough runtime, especially on lower power modes, that you can get out for a proper adventure. They're expensive, they require a lot of design and materials engineering to do well. They're not something that just any company can pull out of their hat and that's why existing mountain bike companies love them. If you love riding a bicycle, but want or need it to be easier, this is the closest approximation you can get with an assist. If you want to do blended Meat & Motor rides this is really the only option for a decent experience for everyone.

Or, you can hit the highway hard with the full juice. With all the moto companies jumping in the cost of full-on Bropeds is coming down all the time. I don't think it's cynical to say that the cranks on these rigs will get continually shorter until they're just pegs - or maybe there will be some vestigiality. Either way, the biggest choice for many riders going forward is between E-Light and Full-E.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I don't think it's cynical to say that the cranks on these rigs will get continually shorter until they're just pegs - or maybe there will be some vestigiality. 

Hmmm unless they have changed the import rules and such around things. The cranks have to be there and usable. As I recall if they aren't the Feds will change the import and such categories which then increases all the various fees, duties, and such that they will get dinged with.

Posted by: Endurimil

Posted by: AndrewMajor

I don't think it's cynical to say that the cranks on these rigs will get continually shorter until they're just pegs - or maybe there will be some vestigiality. 

Hmmm unless they have changed the import rules and such around things. The cranks have to be there and usable. As I recall if they aren't the Feds will change the import and such categories which then increases all the various fees, duties, and such that they will get dinged with.

You can buy Surons and their ilk in Canada today so I don't think pedals vs. pegs is going to hold anyone back. The only argument will be around trail access. 

$6K CAD --> https://surron.ca/pages/light-bee-x

Posted by: Vikb

The only argument will be around trail access.

Bloody gatekeepers, am I right? HAHA.

.

Blurred lines. The only thing that ever had the possibility of community enforcement was motors or no motors.

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Bloody gatekeepers, am I right? HAHA.

.

Blurred lines. The only thing that ever had the possibility of community enforcement was motors or no motors.

Don't be an elitist leg-assist gatekeeper Andrew. People who are leg-challenged, but wrist-able deserve to enjoy the same trails. ;-)

If a company asked me how to get throttle/peg e-MTB accepted on the trails I'd suggest:

1. Make it look pretty similar to current Class 1 e-MTBs.
2. Set the power/speed to be similar to a Class 1 e-MTB stock
3. Hire some influencers on SM to pimp the product somewhere with easy access.
4. Find some good leg-challenged wrist-able folks to demonstrate the access potential for the group.
5. Make some nice promotion videos and pay some e-MTB friendly media to write articles about the product.
6. Redirect the messaging from disabled access towards more laps, easier climbing and self-shuttle.
7. As the product gets more accepted on the trails start leaking the way to hack/unlock more power/speed.
8. Let the design go more and more moto.
9. If anyone complains call them an elitist gatekeeper and tell some anecdote about a sweet leg-challenged wrist-able grandfather who can now shred with their grand kids. Also point out there are already motors on the trails that are similar speed/power so why keep keep from enjoying the trails this way?

I mean it's a strategy that's worked before. ;-)

Posted by: Vikb

Posted by: AndrewMajor

Bloody gatekeepers, am I right? HAHA.

.

Blurred lines. The only thing that ever had the possibility of community enforcement was motors or no motors.

Don't be an elitist leg-assist gate keeper Andrew. People who are leg-challenged, but wrist-able deserve to enjoy the same trails. ;-)

If a company asked me how to get throttle/peg e-MTB accepted on the trails I'd suggest:

1. Make it look pretty similar to current Class 1 e-MTBs.
2. Set the power/speed to be similar to a Class 1 e-MTB stock
3. Hire some influencers on SM to pimp the product somewhere with easy access.
4. Find some good leg-challenged wrist-able folks to demonstrate the access potential for the group.
5. Make some nice promotion videos and pay some e-MTB friendly media to write articles about the product.
6. Redirect the messaging from disabled access towards more laps, easier climbing and self-shuttle.
7. As the product gets more accepted on the trails start leaking the way to hack/unlock more power/speed.
8. Let the design go more and more moto.
9. If anyone complains call then an elitist gatekeeper and tell some anecdote about a sweet leg-challenged wrist-able grandfather who can now shred with their grand kids. Also point out there are already motors on the trails that are similar speed/power so why keep keep from enjoying the trails this way?

I mean it's a strategy that's worked before. ;-)

That's gross, Vik. 

True, but gross.

The comments above nicely illustrate the breadth of the markets the mountain bike industry has been trying to capitalize on lately. There is much of it, gravel bikes and e-bikes mainly, that I’m not interested in at all. The exclusionist in me wants to simply devalue it, to just say “it’s not mountain biking” and ignore it completely. This can make it feel like the passion is waning, since there are some big pieces of the (motor)sport that I don’t follow anymore. On the other hand, I can’t blame anyone for trying to capture The Perfect Customer, and some innovations have undeniably come from pushing the extra-lite and extra-heavy sides of mountain biking.

The Perfect Customer is the same person it always has been: The wealthy and discerning gentleman who rides very, very little. They will spend $15k a year at a shop perfecting their fleet, but will never have a warranty claim, bring a dirty bike in for a service, or waste any of the staff’s time. (The Perfect Customer only needs to speak with the shop owner or manager, obviously.) The margins to be had on The Perfect Customer are so much higher than on anyone else who comes into the store it is required to give them priority. It is also why every mountain town shop in the world needs a top-dollar build on the floor: The first rule of business is to always have product to sell to The Perfect Customer when you see him. Fifteen years ago this product might have been a $10,000 Foes, today it is a $20,000 Yeti e-bike. There’s nothing different about why each product exists, but in my eyes it went from aspirational to predatory when they added the motor.

I may hate the battery but I still love the technology. Yes, the geometry of DH bikes has been sorted for 10 years, but watching the 64 degree head angle trickle down into other genres has been beautiful. Bikes are also just starting to be sized for full-sized humans with XXLs from more and more manufacturers. (I do appreciate the irony of being able to afford a custom now that I don’t need one anymore.) E-bikes also impersonate strong/heavy rider loads, which will spur innovation in wear items like chains and gearboxes as well as with load items like wheels and suspension. Data is something else I hope comes through the recent marketing wave. Testing for components is greatly improved from a safety perspective, but I would love to see reviews of products with numbers included other than bike weights (especially those measured with full water bottles, lol). Yes, you can measure your own wheelbase. No, I can’t read the numbers on that grainy geo table screenshot. Also, can we make it illegal to mention stiffness in a bike review without a measurement!?

As for the overall obsession, I don’t think I’ve backed off much. Post-children I can’t ride as much as I used to. I remember watching Seasons and making a plan to find Matt Hunter’s Hidden River. Needless to say, vacations don’t work like that any more! For better or worse, I still think and read about bikes as much as I ever did. It’s my surrogate experience.

https://meatengines.com/f/shorter-cranks-us?fbclid=PAAabCp9xGJxQ7hMML95_Zi82cPZHnZgBJwQv0nuyyhNkF0rKKX8Ql0IUqP00

Ok, since Andrew brought up injuries and short crank lengths. Just an observation.

In 2019 after getting hit and not knowing what the full damage of knee. And filling medical instructions to ride. On my own and kind of a way to be safe switched to a more high cadence riding style. Now no science to back it up but seemed to work. Have done the same post surgery when was able to ride again. 

Have done it with 175mm cranks and 165mm all on hardtails. And didn’t notice any difference between the two on the Stylus. 

To me aside from maybe ground clearance issues and leg length issues. The ability to spin your mtb cranks with a good cadence has far less to do with crank length and whatever else. And far more to do with you the rider working on your own cadence.

These two sentences stood out for me in the shorter cranks post:

"I've yet to talk to a short-crank adopter who enjoys powering themselves up hard single-track climbs and I've yet to talk to a self-powered rider who likes to climb and is interested in short cranks."

"I'd say if you're happy with your current setup, you probably aren't missing out on anything."

Of course fit is important and if someone has knee issues, shorter cranks are worth trying out, but I'd also suggest looking at the meat engine that powers those cranks. I'm very sensitive to knee issues but improving my strength, balance, and flexibility made them mostly go away eventually.

Meat engine upgrades have always been the most effective upgrades for me.

Funny, I’m short crank curious and the right age to think about preventing future knee issues. I like pedalling and the BB on my suspension bike (Specialized Status) is quite low, even in the high setting. 

I wish there was some way to borrow/rent some before committing to a purchase. Or, I suppose if I went for a set I could shift them over to one of my kids bikes if it’s a disaster. 

Can’t wait for dropper style adjustable telescopic cranks that are short when you need and long when you need.

Posted by: Blofeld

Also, can we make it illegal to mention stiffness in a bike review without a measurement!?

according to Huangism...

Laterally stiff and vertically compliant.