MEAT Engines 2023...

Posted by: earleb

Another user of ODI Longnecks. I specifically ordered the BMX ones from the US to get the ones with build in end caps, seems the Canadian distribution of them doesn't seem to bring them in. I like the seamless transition into the end cap as I wrap the end of my hand around that end cap / plug.

I also have tried a couple of generic knock offs and the rubber isn't nearly as nice. They were much harder.

Thanks, I'm running counterpunches but the built in end caps look good.    

My current favs are Renthal ultra tacky pushons.  They're nice and thin and super grippy.  The only downside is lack of colours.

The sealed-end Longnecks look fantastic. I don't know how they'd work with my clear spray-paint install method though. @Brian do you install them with an air compressor?

The other grip out there that uses the same rubber as the Longneck - also made by ODI - that I love is the Eclat Pulsar grip (and only the Pulsar grip from Eclat). For folks that want to try something different. ODI makes the Swayze push-on as well.

I use the air compressor but I think the clear spray paint method would work if it has a wee bit of slippery time before it tacks up.

I ran the Swayze for a season or two and like them, but enough things have been shared that Zink has said I can spend my money elsewhere.

I would love to try a push on Chromag Squarewave built the same as the Longneck BMX.

Posted by: earleb

I use the air compressor but I think the clear spray paint method would work if it has a wee bit of slippery time before it tacks up.

I ran the Swayze for a season or two and like them, but enough things have been shared that Zink has said I can spend my money elsewhere.

I would love to try a push on Chromag Squarewave built the same as the Longneck BMX.

Yep. That’s what prompted me to look beyond the Swayze in the first place. I really like the Wax but I’d try a push-on Squarewave.

"It's a 22.2mm steel bar attached brazed to a the stem clamp. 16° back, 3° up, 40mm rise, and the stem length is 25mm. I haven't measured the ESL but I'll get to that for Marty's sake."

Thanks.

Posted by: fartymarty

"It's a 22.2mm steel bar attached brazed to a the stem clamp. 16° back, 3° up, 40mm rise, and the stem length is 25mm. I haven't measured the ESL but I'll get to that for Marty's sake."

Thanks.

I should note, there is a ‘stem’ that’s mitered to fit the bar and stem clamp - it’s not just the two round surfaces and a gloop of brazing.

The mitred stem makes sense given the shortest you can get with a regular stem and bar is 30.2mm (1/2 x 1.25" bar + 1/2 x 1.125" steerer). I've had a few rides on my -6mm ESL and it's starting to feel more normal. To early for proper feedback yet tho.

Posted by: fartymarty

The mitred stem makes sense given the shortest you can get with a regular stem and bar is 30.2mm (1/2 x 1.25" bar + 1/2 x 1.125" steerer). I've had a few rides on my -6mm ESL and it's starting to feel more normal. To early for proper feedback yet tho.

Still need to measure; still early days. But I feel like I’ve found a new balance on the between stability and fun that’s net very positive.

I’m descending the the same lines with the same authority but popping off more features despite the long stays (and rigid fork).

Copied from my discussion with Bronson Moore (the most interesting dude at Sea Otter)

I would say that it is also worth noting that you don't necessarily need to be loading the front end through the bars. A big part of why people think they need to do this is for feel and control of the front end. This is more necessary on a bike where you have your hands infront of the steering axis because you get more wheel flop at the bars with that arrangement. To keep control of that floppy steering feel, you need to be more on the bars. With the RR stems reversed offset putting your hands notably behind the steering axis, you get a calmer less floppy feel at the bars and a more direct feel of the tire so that you don't need to be so aggressively over the bar. This is due to a characteristic that I am introducing called Hand Lead. There is Frame Lead aka the trail measurement, and there is Hand Lead which is basically the trail measurement but for your hands relative to the contact patch of the tire. When measuring your Frame Lead, you look at where the steering axis intersects the ground relative to the contact patch of the tire. You are trying to see how long of a lever you have leading the front wheels contact patch from the frames steering axis. In much the same way, your Hand Lead is how long of a lever you have leading the front wheels contact patch along that same steering plane parallel to the steering axis. With the RR stem, you have a Hand Lead that is shorter than the Frame Lead and closer but still infront of the contact patch of the tire. This helps to give a more direct feel of the front tire, while also reducing wheel flop felt at the bars, and helps the frame to lean in more than your hands when turning. With a Hand Lead that is longer than your Frame Lead, as is with a traditional stem, you have a less direct feel of the front tire, with more wheel flop at the bars than your frame has, and your hands lean in more than the frame when turning.

With the RR (Raised Reversed) stem and a traditional sweep bar, your hands will be around 40mm give or take behind the steering axis. Of course, this may very a little depending on individual preferences for bar roll, and bar height. As you are noticing, with a very tall bar, relatively small changes in bar roll for comfort make fairly large changes to the actual grip position relative to the steering axis. That's part of why I went for getting the height and offset needed for the RR stems geometry from the stem instead of a tall bar with a different shape. If I didn't, you would majorly change the geometry with different bar rolls, and you would be more reliant on a tight grip at the stem clamp to keep it from slipping forward or back on hard hits. When using a traditional sweep high rise bar rolled back to get the hands behind the steering axis, you are also compromising the angles of the upsweep and backsweep. Notably, the up sweep may go to negative. This alone can make it feel like you can't load into your bars as comfortably, and like you will be hanging off of the rear instead of having a good stance. If your bars are very tall, and you have a 35mm or shorter stem, you could also try putting the stem on in reverse and rolling the bars forward more to get a similar final hand position but with more upsweep on the bar for a more forward feel. They will likely be rolled too far forward for good comfort, but it may help you to feel like you can maintain a more aggressive standing position to see if you even like the hands behind the steering axis. Try them both if you have the time, and experiment. You never learn if you don't experiment! ;)

More info - https://bemorebikes.com/tech-and-faqs.html

I like the comparison with trail, interesting perspective.

And some more...

I would say that measuring your effective stem length is still a meaningful method of comparing steering geometries between bikes and is correlated with hand lead. For ease of numbers, we can look at the mechanical trail measurement and, if you will, the mechanical hand lead. Mechanical trail is similar to the trail measurement that is typically used called ground trail, although is arguably more useful than ground trail. To find the mechanical trail, extend a line down along through the steering axis, and then draw a line at 90 degrees to that line that leads to the contact patch of the tire. The length of this line is the actual lever, if you will, that your front wheel is being led by and is the mechanical trail. Now imagine drawing a line that is parallel to the steering axis and intersects the effective stem length. If we look at the ground trail lines intersecting point to the line we just drew, that point will be either in front of, in line with, or behind the steering axis. That point will also be either in front of, in line with, or behind the contact patch of the tire. The length along the mechanical trail line from the contact patch of the tire to that point determines the length of the mechanical hand lead. Let's say we have a bike with a 100mm long mechanical trail. If we have an effective stem length that is 20mm in front of the steering axis, then we can add 20mm to the mechanical trail to get 120mm of mechanical hand lead. If we have an effective stem length that is 40mm behind the steering axis, then we can subtract 40mm from the mechanical trail to get 60mm of mechanical hand lead. If we had an effective stem length that is 150mm behind the steering axis, then we can subtract 150mm from the mechanical trail to get -50mm of mechanical hand lead. For ease, looking just at the bike with no lean moving in a straight line, a negative mechanical hand lead would have a destabilizing force that would try to lead the wheel away from straight ahead if pushed forward, any positive number would be a stabilizing force that would try to lead the front towards straight ahead if pushed forward. Your 100mm long mechanical trail does plenty to keep your front wheel being lead straight ahead when the frame is pushed forward, but it also has a large amount of wheel flop. This can be looked at as basically the vertical height of the point where the mechanical trail intersects the steering axis. As you turn the wheel, and that lever, you are lowering that point in space along this vertical height. The effective stem length that is longer than the mechanical trail will have an even higher vertical height, and therefore a larger height to flop down when turned than the mechanical trail of the frame has alone. The effective stem length that is shorter than the mechanical trail will have a lower vertical height, and therefore a smaller height to flop down when turned than the mechanical trail of the frame has alone. I have found that you get the best performance from a positive hand lead that is in general between the contact patch of the tire, and the mechanical trail. This is just an overview and is simplified a bit due to additional complexities of how the measurements dynamically change when dealing with a wheel that is turned instead of a lever, dealing with lean angles, and dealing with feel of how much the mechanical hand lead differs from the mechanical trail.

I fully agree that mtbs are still slowly working their way away from their early road bike roots. I feel that the RR stem is part of a big shift to make mtb geo more mtb friendly. I believe that someday mtbs will have longer headtubes to take up most of the height with a much shorter height Reversed offset stem on top. Until then, the RR stem allows you to ride the geometry of the future with the bike you have now!

I'm into the idea of net positive mechanical hand lead. It makes sense in how well my rig is handling with my negative effective stem length (yes, I still owe you a measurement Marty) but slack static HTA.

...

I think the big issue with the RR stem is going to be the effective top tube length. I would definitely need to be on an XL frame to use it, so it's not just buying a stem to try it, it's buying a frame too. I don't mind sizing up (I already size up to a large on most bikes) but it means folks much taller than myself are going to be very limited in terms of bikes that are RR compatible and proper giants will only have a custom option. 

Not that it isn't a cool idea I'd be in to try, I just think frame size is a significant barrier to uptake.

At $400 it's well out of my price range but is very cool tho.  I think I can achieve similar with a Sunrise and 32mm stem.  I have the length in my Murmur to lose so thats not an issue.