15mm axles are here to stay

15mm is better than 9mm, of course. But 20mm was already there and far better and more readily available than a new size (15mm) so why introduce a not-so-good standard? That doesn't make any sense. other than to increase sales. Some people don't like to hear the truth.

I think the real answer to this question is perception. XC riders perceive 20mm to be for DH/Freeride only - no matter what the weight. So to get them a performance gain (and I'd say a functional gain when compared to a conventional QR) they needed to be met halfway. Obviously nobody here is that dense but out there lots of riders are narrow minded about what they should be riding. I for one say good riddance 9mm QR - which is distinct from taking a stance on 15mm.

As soon as I get a wheel I am going to try out a 15mm fork on my soon (hopefully) to be built hardtail.

You're totally right about that one Cam - Perception.

Obviously nobody here is that dense but out there lots of riders are narrow minded about what they should be riding.

I see what you did there.

I enjoy Dirk's thoughtful and intelligent posts.

Fewer people out there question what they read; most just lap it up. Dirk is an example of someone who's questioning. Stuart seems upset because he's asking these questions.

Questioning what you read is a healthy practice everywhere. BP press releases, NSMB articles, Globe and Mail op-eds.

I've always bought parts based on fit and functionality, not hype and image, which seems to run the mountain bike industry. I remember when the 5th element was released, a number of friends rushed out to buy one, and when I asked them why they wanted one, they couldn't answer, they just believed that it was better, they didn't have a clue what all the settings and features were, and a poorly set up 5th is a horrible shock.

I still see so many things like this today, people bashing/hyping product that they know next to nothing about, but it's considered un/cool.

Further to the hype, forks have become seemingly unreliable lately, it's hard to say whether it's because there is a much larger userbase that is much more connected to other users or not, but either way, it could be because of an increase in demand for features on a fork. I know people who want the highest end fork/shock out there, yet don't understand what the features can do or even rudimentary setup.

In an advert, I would love to see scientific data over why something is the best in class, not just a testimonial or blind statement that it is the best. If someone tells me that a fork is amazing, then I want to see data to back it up, and I want to test ride it before I buy it. It may be the best product for one person's riding style, it may not be for me.

This level of hype is what I believe is driving the 15mm axle. Everyone agrees that 9mm is lacking, but if XC riders don't want to ride a 20mm axle because of their perception of the standard, and the industry is bending over to it because they know it's an easier sell to give them their own standard.

^^^ you must own a Norco.

^^^ you must own a Norco.

And you proved my point exactly.

You're totally right about that one Cam - Perception.

Yup, Cam is spot on. And perception is a huge factor in determining peoples buying decisions. The 15mm forks are an improvement over a 9mm QR fork. If you leave 20mm forks out of the equation it makes a lot more sense.

I've always bought parts based on fit and functionality, not hype and image, which seems to run the mountain bike industry. I remember when the 5th element was released, a number of friends rushed out to buy one, and when I asked them why they wanted one, they couldn't answer, they just believed that it was better, they didn't have a clue what all the settings and features were, and a poorly set up 5th is a horrible shock.

I still see so many things like this today, people bashing/hyping product that they know next to nothing about, but it's considered un/cool.

Further to the hype, forks have become seemingly unreliable lately, it's hard to say whether it's because there is a much larger userbase that is much more connected to other users or not, but either way, it could be because of an increase in demand for features on a fork. I know people who want the highest end fork/shock out there, yet don't understand what the features can do or even rudimentary setup.

In an advert, I would love to see scientific data over why something is the best in class, not just a testimonial or blind statement that it is the best. If someone tells me that a fork is amazing, then I want to see data to back it up, and I want to test ride it before I buy it. It may be the best product for one person's riding style, it may not be for me.

This level of hype is what I believe is driving the 15mm axle. Everyone agrees that 9mm is lacking, but if XC riders don't want to ride a 20mm axle because of their perception of the standard, and the industry is bending over to it because they know it's an easier sell to give them their own standard.

sniff That was beautiful. Will you marry me?

Talking to Enns and a tire designer a while back about mtb tire designs, and they both said mtb tires are generally made to look good, not actually using science or reason. If the knobs look good people will buy it…. or something like that. I asked about testing moto tires and was told that they hire high level pro racers, on a closed track, with timers and tire tools, using mutliple variations of tires. MTB? Not so much. The fact that a high school educated idiot can design tires says a lot.

Part of the problem here is that MTB'ing is still a young sport and is trying to sort out its place in the world. The industry is trying so hard to find an image to hold onto - one part is copying snowboarding and bmx, and the other is emulating MX. So in trying to find its identity, the industry has to sort through oddball trends and inventions to get there. Some will catch on, some will go the way of elastomer bumpers. The sport (well, dh racing at least) is getting there, but overall the sport as a whole is so friggin' trendy. Its a part of the learning process I figure.

Lots of people don't want to hear that I'm sure. I'll put my flame suit on now. ;)

Yup, Cam is spot on. And perception is a huge factor in determining peoples buying decisions. The 15mm forks are an improvement over a 9mm QR fork. If you leave 20mm forks out of the equation it makes a lot more sense.

The problem with that is what I said up there^ about being trendy. You can introduce anything to this market and sell it right and people will sop it up like gravy and biscuits.

And you proved my point exactly.

it's what all Norco owners says….it's in the coolaid. Ok Norco owner, your bike may not be the prettiest, but it's functional…repeat after me…

Atleast you have an excuse for the I9 wheelset.

I agree with Wayne. And regarding image / marketing, I just think that mountain biking is fundamentally uncool and to the rest of the world is viewed pretty well along the lines of longboards, inline skates, etc. The 'cool' sports tend to tend to be along the lines of a plank of wood / really simple bike and being able to do totally rAd things with it. Not a middle aged accountant freewheeling slowly down a hill on a $5K 6" travel bike ;) So further to this, with the typical mountain biker being fairly cash rich and skill poor, they are a marketers dream!

But then I've never tried to be cool.

it's what all Norco owners says….it's in the coolaid. Ok Norco owner, your bike may not be the prettiest, but it's functional…repeat after me…

Atleast you have an excuse for the I9 wheelset.

I know you are just baiting me, but…

I love how people look down on/up to people because of what they ride. I like my bike, it fits me, it fit my budget, I don't see any need to change it, but the amount of (negative) comments that I get are ludicrous. Like I said, this sport is image based.

A good example comes from this weekend. A guy comes to the gear swap looking for a light 6x6 bike that can handle Fromme, there was a Fluid LT that he liked, and he sent a message to a friend who replied something like "Friends don't let friends ride Norco", and shortly after, he walked away from the deal.

I agree with Wayne. And regarding image / marketing, I just think that mountain biking is fundamentally uncool and to the rest of the world is viewed pretty well along the lines of longboards, inline skates, etc. The 'cool' sports tend to tend to be along the lines of a plank of wood / really simple bike and being able to do totally rAd things with it. Not a middle aged accountant freewheeling slowly down a hill on a $5K 6" travel bike ;) So further to this, with the typical mountain biker being fairly cash rich and skill poor, they are a marketers dream!

But then I've never tried to be cool.

Be careful who you slag there, without what you call middle aged accountants buying the new gear, there would not be enough money to fund the high end race and freeride gear you may use…the majority of us do not use our equipment to its full potential, in any sport…unless you are the best in the world in what you do…the rest of us buy on what our opinion is of what we need, some of it is totally needed, some is not, this goes for any sport and happens in all of them…

without companies designing and putting out product and trying to improve on it then we might not have half the stuff we enjoy riding now…if you don't like it then go build your own design and create it…most of us just want to ride not argue about whether it should have been invented in the first place…it is all based on opinion….

Be careful who you slag there, without what you call middle aged accountants buying the new gear, there would not be enough money to fund the high end race and freeride gear you may use…the majority of us do not use our equipment to its full potential, in any sport…unless you are the best in the world in what you do…the rest of us buy on what our opinion is of what we need, some of it is totally needed, some is not, this goes for any sport and happens in all of them…

without companies designing and putting out product and trying to improve on it then we might not have half the stuff we enjoy riding now…if you don't like it then go build your own design and create it…most of us just want to ride not argue about whether it should have been invented in the first place…it is all based on opinion….

Mmmmm industry bait on a miserable morning ;)

Although seriously, or at least for around here, I think geometry and not products has been the main advancement in the last 5 years or so.