Now were all going down the bar roll worm hole I posted the following on [https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/article-discussion-2/topic/meatengines-132290/?page=86](https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/article-discussion-2/topic/meatengines-132290/?page=86) and have had length discussions with others about it.
> _Bar Roll and Position...
> __So i'm running some 12 degree (Ergotecs - 50 and 70 rise) and 16 degree SQ Labs (High Rise) on my HT (doubles as a commuter) and FS bikes. I have 30, 40 and 50mm stems and have been playing around with bar roll to try and centre the "contact patch of my hands" (lets call it Hand Centre for lack of a better term) through the centre of the steerer tube - my theory is that this will give a neutral steering feel_. Currently I am taking Hand Centre at 25mm_\* in from the ends of the bars as I think this is where my weight goes. I'm using some string cable tied between the grips and then a 90 degree set square to align to the steerer centre.
> __\* This came from Paul Astons G1 write up where he does something similar.
> __** Now adjusted to grip centre as this makes more sense as a standard place to measure.
> __Given all of the above this takes stem length out of the equation as bars are always centred through the steerer - however the grip angle is not going to be constant. Hence I have been playing around with varying stem lengths - but are currently on 40mm with a 12x50 bar on HT and 30mm with 16xHigh bar on FS - but have only just changed them so need to ride them to comment on how they feel_
> _I have had the 16 on the commuter and just changed to a 12 last week and didn't like the hand position cf the 16 as it didn't feel as natural._
The following article by RC is also an interesting read [https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html](https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html)
Currently i'm still running an ESL (effective stem length) of 0mm on both my HT and FS bikes. The FS (64HA) feels good, the HT (66HA) feels a little twitchy.
It would be interesting to see if other NSMBers have measured ESL and see where they are at with it. My feeling is that on a longer slacker bike (big trail) ESL needs to be approaching 0mm. On a shorter steeper bike (say road bike) it needs to be a lot longer).
Nov. 2, 2022, 1:45 a.m. - fartymarty
Now were all going down the bar roll worm hole I posted the following on [https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/article-discussion-2/topic/meatengines-132290/?page=86](https://nsmb.com/forum/forum/article-discussion-2/topic/meatengines-132290/?page=86) and have had length discussions with others about it. > _Bar Roll and Position... > __So i'm running some 12 degree (Ergotecs - 50 and 70 rise) and 16 degree SQ Labs (High Rise) on my HT (doubles as a commuter) and FS bikes. I have 30, 40 and 50mm stems and have been playing around with bar roll to try and centre the "contact patch of my hands" (lets call it Hand Centre for lack of a better term) through the centre of the steerer tube - my theory is that this will give a neutral steering feel_. Currently I am taking Hand Centre at 25mm_\* in from the ends of the bars as I think this is where my weight goes. I'm using some string cable tied between the grips and then a 90 degree set square to align to the steerer centre. > __\* This came from Paul Astons G1 write up where he does something similar. > __** Now adjusted to grip centre as this makes more sense as a standard place to measure. > __Given all of the above this takes stem length out of the equation as bars are always centred through the steerer - however the grip angle is not going to be constant. Hence I have been playing around with varying stem lengths - but are currently on 40mm with a 12x50 bar on HT and 30mm with 16xHigh bar on FS - but have only just changed them so need to ride them to comment on how they feel_ > _I have had the 16 on the commuter and just changed to a 12 last week and didn't like the hand position cf the 16 as it didn't feel as natural._ The following article by RC is also an interesting read [https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html](https://www.pinkbike.com/news/exploring-the-relationship-between-handlebar-vs-stem-length.html) Currently i'm still running an ESL (effective stem length) of 0mm on both my HT and FS bikes. The FS (64HA) feels good, the HT (66HA) feels a little twitchy. It would be interesting to see if other NSMBers have measured ESL and see where they are at with it. My feeling is that on a longer slacker bike (big trail) ESL needs to be approaching 0mm. On a shorter steeper bike (say road bike) it needs to be a lot longer).