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Dec. 11, 2019, 10:30 a.m. -  Nouseforaname

We are pulling people out of extreme poverty at an unprecedented rate (which is amazing and cool, given that the level for which 'extreme poverty' is set would have you living almost twice as well as someone in the UK 120 years ago). That was a country that had the largest economy in the world and a globe spanning empire.  This is happening thanks to the industrialization of the two most populous nations on earth. Without curbing their natural desire to have what we have, there is no meaningful way to achieve what self conscious hand wringing types like TOYER (shouldn't it be TOSYER - too close to what I think perhaps) want. US and EU Co2 emissions are 10% lower than they were a decade ago - that's improvement overall right? How is that \# for the two countries I mentioned? And how has that happened? We either end that improvement of life for residents of those two big countries - driven by their desire for the same goods and services we have; as they don't care about the environment 'enough', or we deal with the consequences. At this point, probably not much short of global thermonuclear war will do it. As a plus the nuclear winter will reduce 'rising temperatures' and 'icebergs melting' etc and send us back to pre industrial revolution temperatures. Win/win for the environment (? fallout might be an issue), and I'm pretty sure the XR folks would be happy at last. Off shoring manufacturing so that we can have endless plastic shit at Christmas, Easter, Halloween and any time we want a cheap geegaw has got us into this situation. We have supercharged those previously 'have not' economies and now we are wringing our hands about the results. And pretending we can fix it from 10,000 miles away - how privileged patriarchal is THAT idea? We either force those countries to clean up their act, or suffer the consequences globally. And telling individuals in the 'west' that is is their responsibility to manage is about as Stalinist an idea as I can come up with. We have built China's economy with massive trade imbalances, desire for cheap shit, and ignoring for decades their  breaking of global rules and norms because it suits those making money from the situation. Now they and India are in the driving seat of global pollution what are we going to do about it? Make A+W use paper straws? Nice one! 2.7 BILLION polluters. The population of Europe AND the USA doesn't account for half that \#. Now India is getting in on the act - they've doubled their CO2 output in 10 years, but they are still only 25% of what China is at now. Their population growth is not slowing. The good news is that China's population is stabilizing. So maybe we won't tip over 10 billion. Reap the whirlwind. With apologies in advance to Cam and Dave for being such a 'redneck'.

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