Not A Bike Review
Simply Tweaking
This is less a review than it is a check-in. Every once in a while it is a good practice to revisit one’s biases and decisions and ask them some difficult questions. In this instance, I reviewed a Starling Twist two years ago. I liked that bike so much that I plunked down some money on a Starling Murmur frame. Having decided that since the Mulleted short travel version of that bike had blown my skirt up in such a delightful way, then obviously the 29er version set up with more travel would really rock my world. Filet brazed 853 steel, external cable routing, modern geometry and simple old-school suspension, what could possibly go wrong?
Well, the Murmur and I got off to a rocky start. We did not gel. I built it up with the squishy bits you see in these pics; a Manitou Mezzer 160mm travel fork up front, and a Push SV Eight coil shock in the rear. XT drivetrain, and a sampling of bits poached from other bikes. I rode the bike in the desert a few times, then in Santa Cruz a few times on my way back to Mexico from Colorado after picking up the shock from Darren Murphy at Push.
After following some rudimentary setting up of things, I was still in the honeymoon phase of the relationship and totally happy riding it around in the sand washes of Baja. I was not by any means blown away by the bike as a whole, however. I chalked that up to the terrain, rather than the bike. Then I moved to Buena Vista, Colorado.
And up here, in the thin air, timing my pedal strokes between rock strikes, I began to hate that bike. The same bike I had chosen, the one I had forked over a wad of cash to buy, the conscious decision I had made. Sigh.
I couldn’t get the front to go where I pointed it, blowing through the rear travel, pinballing between rocks feeling much more like a passenger than a rider, smashing pedals into everything, struggling up every single hill. It didn’t help that I was cycling through a bunch of shorter travel, lighter weight, much more snappy climbing test bikes. Every one of them made the Murmur feel like a sadistic boat anchor, put on this earth to humiliate and eventually maim me. Then, at some point, the rear wheel’s tape job lost the plot and I developed a slow leak that no matter how many times I re-taped the rim I could not fix, and the bike was consigned to the back of the shed. I felt like I had spent a ton of money on a bike that I didn’t really like.
Time and location can do weird shit to a person’s thinking. As I was packing to come home from Baja at the end of this winter, cleaning out all the junk I had brought down the previous year, I found a silver 500lb coil spring and a pair of Forge+Bond wheels. Hmmm, those were supposed to be for the Starling, I realized, but I had never got around to messing with them down in Mexico. So I loaded them up and drove north.
Quiet, composed, planted and not too stiff. Forge+Bond's $1250 Shift AM wheelset finally got released from Mexican prison, and were the first step toward repairing my contentious relationship with the Murmur.
After installing the wheels, and conveniently bypassing the need to figure out why the other rear wheel had gone rogue, I took the Murmur out for a spin. It still kinda sucked on the local pedally chunk, but at least the tires held air. Then I installed the spring, replacing the 475lb spring that had been on there. Eureka, in a whispered voice.
So, back when the bike was brand spanking new we started with a 450lb spring, and after a few bounces around the parking lot at Push we went up to a 475lb spring before Darren sent me on my merry way. I had totally forgotten – blanked it out of my mind entirely – that he had also laid a 500lb spring on me and mentioned it may be the better eventual call. What had been happening on the trails around Buena Vista was that the 475lb spring was preloaded a fair bit and still prone to blowing through the middle of the travel. Understandable, given a single pivot suspension with a very linear leverage rate. Cranking the compression dampers in only made the small bump compliance worse, and the bike still felt choppery when pedaling through the rough. Hence all the pedal smashing and grinding of teeth.
Compounding this, the Mezzer was riding high in its travel, exacerbating the overall chopperiness and making it hard for me to get the front to bite in the kittly litter over hardpack corners that characterize life here. Swapping out to the heavier spring was an immediate and profound change in not only the rear suspension’s behavior, but the entire bike attitude. I felt like an ungrateful idiot for not realizing I had this spring waiting quietly down in Mexico the whole time. Dumbass.
This bears repeating: Dumbass. Also: Game changer. Swapping in the correct rate spring made a massive change to the bike's composure. Some days I am amazed that I made it this far in life considering all the boneheaded shit I've pulled. Rider weight; 190lbs. 500lb spring, just enough preload to stop it from rattling, 17mm sag, sweeeet.
Righto then, time to do some work. Tires holding air, rear suspension suddenly performing many orders of magnitude better than before, I spent a few rides trying to get my head around the Mezzer and Manitou’s IRT dual air chamber. Basically, for me, following the set up guide etched on the fork leg led to the fork riding high in the travel, ramping up a bunch, and clunking on top out unless I ran so much rebound damping that it felt like there was molasses in the legs. The stock recommendation for Manitou is to set the IRT to about 1.5 times the main chamber pressure, and for my (don’t call me fat) 190 pound weight that equates to about 60/90psi main/IRT. After a ton of incremental bracketing, I ended up at 52/72psi, which is about what Manitou would recommend for a 160lb rider who never catches air. Or something like that. Ah well. Works for me. Fork is now riding where I want, and sticking in the corners.
Between the shock spring and the front fork tuning, the front and rear ends of the bike finally, for the first time since I had built it, felt like they were on the same page. And I began to like the bike again. I began to really like the bike again.
Some people love the Manitou Mezzer because it can be tuned to ride high in its travel. That was not working out so well on this bike, so some air-pressure based attitude adjustment was in order. It's probably too soft and not progressive enough now for people who smash, but it's working pretty damn well for me. It's a good fork, but not the most intuitive to get dialed in...
There’s a softness to the Starling frame that is quite a bit different to some of the mega-stout carbon fiber bruisers that are becoming the default in this travel category. I think this needs to be factored into how you go about setting this bike up. My gut feeling remains the same on this front; big strong mashers are likely to gravitate more toward the stouter frames, but there is a whole lot of goodness that exists in the Starling for riders who are less hell-bent on hucking their meat. Buuut, there’s also some care needed in terms of suspension, both in terms of component selection as well as setup. That softness can be really sweet on the trail.
The rear suspension is pluuuush now, but with the compression clickers turned in a teeny bit past halfway there’s enough support that the Murmur pedals surprisingly well and is incredibly tractable when tipping into corners or smearing the bike up onto a rocky ledge. The front now responds well to cornering inputs and doesn’t bottom out on me when stuffing the wheel into the holes at the bottoms of rock rolls, and again, is pluuuush in the chattery loose garbage. The Forge+Bond Shift wheels are quiet and forgiving, and I’m running a pair of 2.3 Butcher T9 tires at 23/21psi rear/front and the whole package feels composed, balanced, and working together like it is all the same bike.
Adding to that overall quietude is the Rimpact Chain Damper I was talking about a couple weeks ago. It adds to all the plush and quiet attributes I was aiming for, and I am beginning to think it is also helping the way the bike behaves on corner entry, because the front has been going exactly where I point it ever since I installed the thing. I suspect this is because the rear traction/plantedness is better now, and that is allowing me to focus on the front, but it might also be confirmation bias on my part. Bundling all these little tweaks together and taking much overdue time to concentrate on setup has transformed the bike into a cheat code for railing off-camber rocky jank.
"That rug really tied the room together, did it not?"
"Fuckin'-A"...
A new OneUp 45mm stem and 35mm rise bar found their way onto the Starling last week, bringing the handlebars 5mm closer and 10mm higher than the Shimano Tharsis parts they replaced, along with a 210mm OneUp V3 dropper that just barely fits. I never thought I would need a dropper with more than 175mm travel, but here we are. I guess “want” would be more appropriate than “need” in this case. The bars and stem are, as the kids say, chef’s kiss.
It took a while, and a whole lot of head scratching, along with some relaxation of dogmatic thinking about how I set up bikes, but me and the Starling are starting to gel. We are not likely to set the world on fire with our climbing speed, and this is not the bike I will be choosing for huge mileage days (not really being able to mount a damn waterbottle anywhere with this setup kinda enforces that). But boy howdy, we are having some fun on the downs. Lots and lots of fun on the downs. And I no longer regret buying this sweet old pile of antiquated thinking.
Comments
fartymarty
1 month ago
Mike - FWIW i'm a sniff under 200lb and run a 600lb spring on my Ohlins on the back of my Murmur and a shit ton of comp damping and it still feels plush. I'm also on Ohlins coil m2s up front which helps keeps the front glued to the ground. I am on a older model with 140mm travel which will need factoring in.
Did someone mention water bottle....
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
What is that, a watterbottle for mice?
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fartymarty
1 month ago
A 700ml Podium fits. https://www.cyclesolvers.co.uk/product/bottle-adaptor-starling-murmur/10?cs=true&cst=popular
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
Looks like yours is an XL frame, right? I just mocked up a test fit on mine, and it looks like a small Specialized bottle would fit, barely. As it sits right now, I stuff a large bottle into the rear pocket on my bibs for rides two hours or less. Anything longer and it's backpack time.
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fartymarty
1 month ago
Yeah it's an XL (with -2 headset so it's geometron long).
I generally ride with a backpack but water goes on the bike for 2-3 hour rides. I did have a bottle hung under the TT but kept dropping them.
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Brad Nyenhuis
1 month ago
Nothing on the Zoolander reference?
Shame
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fartymarty
1 month ago
Whoosh....
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
To be fair, I shoulda used ants instead of mice if I was going full Zoolander...
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Brad Nyenhuis
1 month ago
Never go full Zoolander
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ReformedRoadie
4 weeks, 1 day ago
A 2fer Ben Stiller reference...nice.
Muesliman
1 month ago
On my Twist, I've found the high speed compression lever on the Ohlins TTX to be quite a revelation. With it 'closed' the ride feels 'sporty' but still supple like a shorter travel bike and it climbs great. With it fully open it lets you enjoy the full 165mm plushness. Yes indeed, middle-aged man discovers pedal platform :) Before having it serviced, I hardly noticed any difference between the lever positions but I guess that a port must have been gunked-up with grease or something.
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Andy Eunson
1 month ago
The only thing better than a new bike, is that same bike when you get the cockpit dialed and suspension tuned to your liking. And maybe that first scratch so you quit riding like you’re ten ply.
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Kenny
1 month ago
I think fancy linkages can make one a little less vigilant about suspension setup. Single pivots are awesome, but less forgiving of sub-optimal setup.
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Shinook
1 month ago
A few things from a long time Mezzer user and a short time Murmur user.
On the Mezzer - you need to consider the ratio of pressure between IRT and main. If you have a large gap between the two (say 30+ PSI) and don't adjust the damper correspondingly, then the fork will feel harsh because it's blowing through the main sprint and riding on the higher pressure IRT chamber. It'll feel like a fork with 4 tokens and too much sag.
By reducing the gap between IRT and main pressures, you'll get a more linear fork and you can use that combination for your ride height. I found this makes it track a lot better, say running ~18% (as best as can be measured anyway) sag on the main and only 20psi on top of this for IRT. If you are sending larger features and bottoming out too harshly (don't forget HBO) then you could experiment with increasing that gap, but that's where you need to consider your damper setup a little more. The tendency is to set a huge gap between the two to avoid bottoming out, then run the damper fairly open - but this is when you need to add more HSC to help control the transition between main and IRT chambers, otherwise you'll blow through then hit the second spring and it will spike badly. There is a point where the gap becomes too large and you either need to reshim the damper or adjust the spring setup again, otherwise again - it'll spike.
In short, I found that if you want a linear, coil-like configuration, reduce the pressure difference between IRT/main. If you need more progression, increase that gap but add HSC to avoid it spiking badly. Adjust air pressures based on the gap to find the feel you are after.
This gap is, IMO, critical to setting up the fork right, more than it is the exact pressures. The setup guide is..not great. They could've taken more notes from other brands on how to do this right IMO, for their faults DVO got this right when they made the guide talking about how to setup OTT and Manitou could've adopted that approach to help guide users better..
On the Murmur - I'm 220lbs and found that I needed to run both a firmer spring and damper configuration to get the most out of it. I was told to set it up fairly soft to begin with, but found I blew through the travel too quickly and it would sortof sink into it's travel, hanging up on edges and steep sections especially under braking.
For whatever reason, increasing HSC/LSC both fairly high reduced this tendency, as did increasing the spring rate. Don't forget, Starling has traditionally recommended two spring rates higher than normal on their bikes - this applies to the Murmur also. I found in doing both of these things, which is counterintuitive, helped control the rear ends negative tendencies due to a less optimal axle path/etc and made the bike ride much better for me.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
Noted and agreed to all of the above. I decreased the difference between chambers as I lowered main pressure on the Mezzer until I experienced exactly what you described - a little too linear, and relying on adding HSC to control deep hit behavior. Where I am now is right on that 20psi main/IRT differential and I'm running both compression circuits halfway in. Much of what I was aiming for was finding the right ride height without it feeling boggy. Feels pretty good now, but I am definitely continuing to futz with it.
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fartymarty
1 month ago
If in doubt pop Joe at Starling an email and he should be able to sort you out.
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Shinook
1 month ago
That's about where I landed, also. IMO the guide will leave you setup with a fork too progressive and harsh, backing down to ~20psi between the two puts it in a much better place.
It is one of the few forks I feel like actually does well with a firmer damper tune, I've had stock and firmed dampers and the latter really does improve the fork, I know it's - again - counterintuitive, but it seems to help the fork track better and avoid spiking.
They are also sensitive to even minor changes in air pressure, so a digital pump is critical.
Dougal @ Shockcraft in NZ is a good resource for anything Manitou. At one point he was working on machining a coil conversion for the Mezzer but I think it was limited or cancelled? Not sure.
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Brad Nyenhuis
1 month ago
Also, from a long time Mezzer Kool aid drinker. They come very overdamped and respond amazingly to a retune, which is extremely simple to do yourself.
If anyone is interested, I can send out a PDF for the procedure.
This truly unlocks the potential of, dare I say? the best fork ever built.
Yeah, I said it.
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Briain
1 month ago
Yeah, I'd love to have a look at that. Although pretty happy with my Mezzer as is but it is due a service
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Steven Kovalenko
4 weeks, 2 days ago
I am also curious - always interested in squeezing more performance out of this excellent fork.
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ReformedRoadie
4 weeks, 1 day ago
As some one who has been Mezzer curious for awhile and in position of a Mara Pro (haven't installed yet over a coil in place)...
Is it sacraledge to ask how the Mezzer Expert is with a simpler air spring and less damping clicks to fuss with? Is it a case of getting 90+% of the performance with much less phaffing or is the IRT the secret sauce that makes the Mezzer stand out?
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Shinook
4 weeks, 1 day ago
IMO the 3 chamber airspring (IRT) is a big reason why the fork rides so well, same with most 3 chamber airsprings
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lookseasyfromhere
3 weeks, 6 days ago
I went with the Expert on my Murmur because I hate fiddling with my suspension and I love it. And if I ever get bored of not faffing with getting it justright I can upgrade the parts to match the Pro.
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Velocipedestrian
1 month ago
I've found myself trying to cure too soft a spring with preload and compression damping enough times now to have confirmed I'm happier over- than undersprung with a coil shock.
But oy! There were some frustrated rides on the way to that understanding.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
The general rule that I have always applied to dirt bikes is "as little preload as possible" and trying to hit the right static/loaded sag with correct spring rate. I should have applied that to this, but since we had already bumped up spring rate from the starting point, and since the initial rides were in terrain that was less critical with regard to middle of stroke behavior, and since I FORGOT I even had a stiffer spring, I ended up back in Colorado feeling too embarrassed to call Darren up and ask about a stiffer spring. My vague hopes that I would lose about 20lb of body fat were also not panning out...
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Kos
1 month ago
Ah the endless quest for the cinderella spot right smack dab between chopper and stinkbug — which is SO worth the time and energy!
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bushtrucker
1 month ago
Been wondering what this bike was up to. Nice to see it dialed. No better feeling!
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justwan naride
1 month ago
I had this bike for a weekend as a demo. Even with the suspension set up for a much heavier rider I didn't really like how it pedalled and climbed. I loved it on looong descends though, there's a certain degree of comfort built in the frame itself I think. I feel it would be nice to own if you live somewhere with proper mountains and ride hiking/goat trails. I also like the classic look of steel tubes. Like steel hardtails, this one will age well.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
I'm pretty okay with how it pedals. I've definitely ridden far worse. But, compared to the more sophisticated designs out there, it definitely telegraphs more info through the pedals. Climbing, well, my deal there is more about overall mass and my own dwindling wattage.
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Raymond Epstein
1 month ago
Throughout my long journey through full suspension bikes beginning in '98 I came to favor single-pivot bikes for their simplicity and feel. It is a "feel" I still appreciate which I describe as when you step on the gas it goes forward. The pedal feel is there, but it doesn't bother me.
Many suspension designs have evolved towards a nearly opposite feel where the suspension movement is nearly or completely independent of the pedaling/chain influences. These include the omnipresent Horst-link bikes (especially with Speshy's FSR design, DW-link bikes (and all of the similar variations KS-link, Maestro, CBF's etc). The "hover-bike" effect in varying degrees. I will place Santa Cruz's VPP especially their current lower link design back in a similar space as the single pivots. My current ride, a 5010 MX is incredibly snappy off the line and I would not describe it as plush. However, it's just enough give to taking the sting out of any less than graceful landings.
I have not ridden the latest SC VPP layout introduced on the Bronson/Hightower last year. What I found interesting is that SC evolved the previous VPP design over the release of bikes following the last gen of Bronson and the 5010 was the last of them. FWIW, it is about as perfect a design for my drunken angry bear riding style as I have ever ridden. Or to put another way, it is a total "Jerk" bike encouraging a nonstop hooligan riding behavior.
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Raymond Epstein
1 month ago
I'm pretty sure one of the first upgrades on any single pivot bike especially a classic one like this would be a heavier weight progressive spring. I have found these to be an amazingly effective, low cost and simple addition.
Suspension designers have built a whole universe around this sort of thing. Back in the day, the Cane Creek Double Barrel was a revelation for it's ability to make a single pivot bike pedal better than any multi-pivot rig. In the years following suspension and frame designs improved diminishing the need for such complex shock designs. Sometimes just changing the spring rate is all it takes though as you've found out. Looks great as Starlings always do!
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fartymarty
1 month ago
I'm not sure if the CC DB is the same but the Ohlins has a massive bottom out elastomer that kicks in probably 2/3 into the travel. I can count the harsh bottom outs on one hand in the 6 years I've been on the Murmur. Personally I wouldn't bother with a progressive spring but get it if you like the feel of a progressive bike.
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[email protected]
1 month ago
My least favorite bike I"ve ever owned was mid travel steel single pivot bike almost identical to the Starling from a smaller US manufacturer who shall remain nameless out of respect for his business practices. It somehow managed to both climb and descend poorly no matter what shock/spring/settings I tried. I've been on a Reeb Steezl for a bit and have really enjoyed it, it's a very versatile bike with the ability to run it anywhere from 140-162 rear travel air or coil shocks (though I mostly run coil). As for the Mezzer, I found an air pressure calculator via mtbr that recommends lower settings than stock that I've been very happy with for 3 years running now. I'm 200 lbs ready to ride and run 60 main, 89 IRT
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
The Mezzer was definitely a bit of work to come to grips with. The lighter than ideal rear spring really didn't mesh well with the tall riding Manitou, and it took a fair bit of bracketing and little pressure changes to find my personal sweet spot on that. I tend to run most modern forks a little bit softer than recommended, but the way that the two air chambers interact on the Mezzer IRT took a little longer to decipher.
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Kapolczer
1 month ago
Mike, I’d love to see you take it a step further with the Mezzer and have an aftermarket piston and shim stack installed by the likes of NSR, shockcraft, etc. Would make for a great part 2 to this article!
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Brad Nyenhuis
1 month ago
One of the (many) things I love about the Mezzer is its ability to perform to alternate situations. Every Fox I've used (through the Grip2) has been good at one thing or another. If set for race pace it would do fine but rattle my teeth on a ride with my wife. If set soft for slow speeds it lacked support for pace.
After doing a softer tune, the Mezzer is amazing at being all things to all people. A couple clicks of LSC allows me to toggle between easy rides to high speed flow trail Z-outs to steep janky tech. A click or two of HSC and you get an Enduro monster.
I think the dual airspring chambers have a lot to do with having great support without being harsh.
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Lynx .
1 month ago
Mike, sounds like you finally got the thing dialled in pretty good, it's something lots forget to play with when they get a new bike because they're so excited and new bike syndrome is fresh, happy for you. It's amazing how long/much you can play with a bikes setup before you finally get it to where you like and even then, sometimes a year or two later or maybe injury later, you're back to fiddling because time/injuries takes it's toll and you're not as flexible, etc.
Now, to all you guys who own and ride these bikes (steel & mid-longer travel FS) could you please try to describe what it is exactly that you like about them? Myself, I love a good steel HT frame, they really do help take the sting out of the ride compared to most alu allow frames, but for the life of me I cant figure out the steel FS 140-160 thing, doesn't make sense and then toss in single pivot ontop of that and even less. I could see steel for maybe a nice short travel FS, say <120mm, where the compliance could be used to help with the lesser travel, but for longer travel I'd think it'd be too much. The one area I can understand is the lack of needing heat treatment for small builders, but other than that I scratch my head.
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Shinook
1 month ago
I had a Murmur for a while, I have a BLE now as my only bike (I've had to tone down my riding a lot due to nerve problems).
I chose the Murmur out of curiosity, I liked the idea of the simplicity and aesthetics, but I also like the way brands like Starling and REEB conduct themselves. They are largely (or entirely) made in the UK or US, they are very responsive to questions or issues, and they go to lengths to repair rather than replace things when they break. They also go above and beyond to test things, with REEB I asked about putting a Mara Pro on a SST and they not only drew it out to see if the absurd reservoir would fit, they went and acquired one, rode it, then gave me feedback before shipping my frame. How many brands do that level of experimentation? I know Starling has done a lot of experimentation with different shock setups, as well, whereas larger brands kinda depend on what they can get as groups.
Their repair policy is a certain ethos that I think is in stark contrast to other brands I won't mention, where I repeatedly broke frames and was sending off for new ones, while the old were just discarded away...it just seems wasteful. Someone spent time laying those up, painting them, verifying them, etc - I just hate the idea of it being tossed in the garbage, like it's a piece of someone's life. I get more contemplative about this as I get older and it may not matter to everyone, but it's something I do consider and gives me pause at times. I've never once broken a REEB or Starling frame, but subjected both to what I'd consider use beyond their intention. That and a lot of larger brands, it's impossible to get good support. I have questions, sometimes pointed, and they always answer straightforward and clearly.
As far as performance goes, I won't lie, you do give up suspension performance to the single pivots if you ride a certain way. They tend to require a more active, engaged riding style as opposed to more modern enduro bikes that have a more planted feel, I think in large part this is due to the axle path, but I'm also no engineer so I'll defer to experts on that. It can be managed, like I mention in my other post, but you won't get the same level performance out of it as say a Geometron, Enduro, Steezl, etc. OTOH you don't have a ton of bearings to replace constantly if you ride in a place where bearing wear is an issue (and I do). That said, my Murmur's suspension performance was better than a poorly configured Horst bike, so it's not that single pivot is always worse - there are just bikes that do it better. Compared to my v1 Sentinel, I found the Murmur to be more planted and hang up less once adjusted, for instance, but compared to my G1/Enduro you had to plan ahead a bit more and use weight shifts or unweights to avoid it hanging up at times - especially under braking. If you really want steel and the feel of a more complex linkage, the Steezl or SST are both really good options from a similar type of brand, although I understand the politics of suggesting an American brand on a Canadian board, they make excellent bikes and you get the best of all the above worlds. I've owned a lot of bikes and the SST was one of the best all around bikes I owned in terms of suspension performance.
I like the aesthetics, also, and so does everyone else. I rarely get someone that doesn't comment on my BLE when I go ride.
It's not for everyone and that's fine, they are more expensive (esp REEB) and the value proposition isn't entirely there, but when you put all of this together, they fit what I'm after more than most other bikes/brands do.
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Mike Ferrentino
1 month ago
Lynx, I didn't buy this for absolute performance reasons. I was going through a cycle of carbon-fiber burnout, and had really enjoyed how a shorter travel Starling test bike had handled. SO, I wanted a longer travel bike than my usual diet, and decided to roll the dice on the Starling. I like that it is made in the UK (mostly), and that steel is more repairable/recycleable. I also like the simplicity.
I don't think it gives up a ton of performance - for me. Bigger/harder riders would definitely benefit from the greater chassis stiffness of something burlier, and harder riders would also probably benefit from a more sophisticated suspension. However, I am impressed with the ride quality that I've arrived at with this setup, and do not feel like I am riding at a disadvantage in my local terrain and conditions. Again, this is very personal, so I am not trying to influence anyone beyond saying "steel single pivots can be made to ride far better than most people think or expect."
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Shinook
1 month ago
At 220, I'm big enough to induce flex in some frames and I've had it happen with some older alloy frames, but I never had an issue with the flex in my Starling or esp REEB frames. The latter seem to ride more like traditional bikes and have less flex, but that said, whatever flex is there on the Starling was not really noticeable to me. It held a line fine in rough stuff, I didn't have to fight it to keep in place, it wasn't springing all over the trail, etc. I could sometimes feel it under heavy pedaling effort on technical trails, but otherwise it seemed like a non-issue to me.
It was clearly happening based on some of the rub on the frame, but it never really presented a problem to me riding even as someone pushing into 'heavier' territory.
The biggest performance detriment to these bikes is when you start getting into steep fast stuff with square edges, IMO. I mentioned this in another post but the rear end hangs up more compared to a well thought out multi-link bike like the Steezl, G1, Enduro, etc. I was able to mitigate it with suspension setup, but it still didn't have that "accelerate through major chunky stuff" feel that those bikes did. OTOH it did have a livlier, more engaging ride feel and was a little easier to unweight and pump, which helps with that.
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Jotegir
1 month ago
I'll take a swing at this.
This is my 2017 Daambuilt. Or at least as it was when it was last together - it is currently out for repair. It is also, notably, not a single pivot.
It's a 160mm front, 150-160mm rear (depending on which lower shock bolt is used), it's 160mm and most progressive as pictured. It is sized about an XL from 2017, which is still approximately my preferred sizing in bikes (noting that this means I am now on a large in many longer travel bikes). You can read about the numbers and profile here, if interested, but the highlights are as follows:
- 48% progressivity in the mode I preferred
- very linear, if even somewhat forward, axle path
- very active under braking suspension
Compounding the above is the steel chassis - this bike grips to the ground like an angry cat. I've never ridden anything, even 8 years later, with better traction under braking. On unknown trails, new features, or wet stuff, it's fantastic. It's ultimately a very 'safe' and forgiving bike - pretty much the perfect bike to take on trips to places you don't know. I do also think there's something to be said about the dampening characteristics - In its final season before it's next iteration, I rode this bike day in and day out at Sun Peaks and I don't know if there's another 160mm bike that would limit trail chatter and feedback as well as it did.
It is a marked departure from many of the longer travel bikes I enjoy now that are all on the other end of anti-squat and stiffen under braking, and formed a great counterpart with stuff like my Aurum HSP. That said, I think I'm quite an adaptable rider and can get sufficiently used to a different bike and suspension design in about 2-3 laps and will naturally optimize my body position, etc for the platform I'm on in relatively short order.
With carbon wheels I didn't find any issue with lack of lateral stiffness - I'm 215 lbs and ride feet heavy; there's been many 29ers of (even somewhat recent) days past that I could flex the rear tire into the stays in cornering.
Is it the fastest, raciest bike out there? No, and it wasn't at the time; but it wasn't really supposed to be. I'll probably resurrect it at something a little bit different.
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fartymarty
1 month ago
Shinook, Mike and Jotegir have pretty much summed up all my thoughts on my Murmur.
It's simple to work on, works well enough for me and is steel (therefore easily repairable - I can get in the car and drive to Starling in 2ish hours).
Company ethos is also a big one. I couldn't buy something from a company I didn't want to support no matter how good the product.
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Ziggy
1 month ago
I believe the biggest advantage of steel single pivots is the option to go full custom. I have found that having a bike which fits me exquisitely with suspension characteristics which support my riding style and terrain out performs anything else from the bike industry I’ve ridden. You can unlock your full abilities in a way that has to be experienced to be believed. Check out Walt works, Daam built and Mistress cycles if interested in pursuing this experience.
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Lynx .
1 month ago
Thanks to all who took the time to respond, definitely clarified the why of them and very interesting hearing from so many bigger riders on them who like them. Lateral flex is what I was wondering about, experienced that with alu in 2007 early RIP9, cornering hard, kitted at around 185-190lbs the rear wheel would steer difference to the front, was a very weird and unsettling feeling.
To Marty, well hell yeah, 2 hours drive to actually see the manufacturer in person, that alone would be a HUGE selling point for me, that's fantastic, what an experience. To the easy to work on and/or weld/fix without needing heat treatment, tell me about it, I sat on my Phantom for nearly 4 years trying to figure out a fix for the cracked BB as there was no one here who could properly deal/weld 7000 series alu and no heat treating - I eventually of course got it back up and running with the help of modern epoxies and some out of the box thinking ;-)
Shinook, I've actually looked at the REEB SST, absolutely love the concept, short travel, steel, but holy friking hell do they ask a Prince's ransom, $3400 USD for the frame only, no shock. If I was rolling in cash I'd probably get one, but I'm not so. Now if they offered semi custom, to say change the STA/HTA then maybe that amount would be worth it to me, but for stock, no :-\ To the Starlings, their aesthetics don't quite do it for me, although the price is a lot more reasonable at around $2400 USD.
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Jotegir
1 month ago
Darco frames are what, $3,500 CAD retail, with a shock? North of a thousand more for the Reeb is rough!
3400 USD sans-shock is already knocking on the door of the custom world.
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Kenny
1 month ago
Beat me to it. Darco was going to be my suggestion as well for something in the SST realm.
And yeah, I get there's the cool 3D printed stuff with the SST and Reeb seem like a great brand, but at that price point, there's some serious options. Me personally, I'd probably be looking something like a Myth Cycles Zodiac - semi custom at $3k.
Or a Dawley T16 if staying British. I want one bad.
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fartymarty
1 month ago
I'd go a Darco in a heartbeat.
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Lynx .
4 weeks, 2 days ago
Except for the fact that that bike is built for those who only live someplace like BC or the Alps and winch and plummet with that stupid steep, 78 degree STA, would hate to try and pedal that thing about on flat or rolling trails or mild climbs etc. Then the 64 degree HTA, definitely not a pedal all day, over varying terrain bike and that's absolutely fine if there's enough market to warrant/make it worth it for them, but not for me, 74 degree STA is it for me and 65.5-66 HTA is plenty slack enough.
Oh and BIG side note, can ALL manufacturers state the damn height the saddle is at when they list the ESTAs please??? Far as I know Banshee and maybe 1 or 2 others do it instead of the entire industry.
Jotegir
4 weeks, 2 days ago
@Lynx . , I wasn't necessarily recommending you get a Darco, just providing it as a comparable on the price front. They're obviously different as far as philosophy goes (the Darco is designed by/for hardtail madmen so even though it's low travel, they probably intend it to be ridden on truly absurd stuff, because otherwise they could just ride their hardtails).
For what it's worth, I spent a summer on a ~64.5 degree HTA, 76 degree Trek Top Fuel on my East Coast of Canada trip and the head angle was great for all-day, unknown trail riding. Different strokes I suppose. Actually, Trek should just release the steel front triangle Top Fuel they teased and job done!
Lynx .
4 weeks ago
@Jotegir, OK, yeah, I get that, something much more in the ballpark cost and design wise closer to what I'd consider.
While I can agree with Shinook that there's some unique stuff going on with the REEB, I think most of the cost comes from one thing, made in the USA and to me that doesn't make any difference, IMHO salaries in the US are jacked because of a lot of crazy shit that drives up the cost of living, that other countries don't have. As to the argument that's made that the quality is better, that's a solid eye roll from me, sorry. So once again, wanting to charge 30-50% more on the cost of something because "made in the USA" looses them, I'd guess, international sales, especially when there's companies/brands doing similar in European countries not charging like they do.
Re the 64.5 HTA as an all day thing, can't convince me of that, not at least how I like a bike to steer/ride on flat to rolling trails and milder climbs, the downs aren't the be all, end all for me, or at least having a bike setup to make that the easy part - I can ride/get down everything all those riders can, just a bit slower and with a LOT more input from me, which I prefer, don't like passengering and I've seen a good few new riders on those bikes get themselves injured because they just never had to build up their skills.
I've worked on modern "enduro" bikes with those slacker HTAs and tooling them around, they just feel like floppy PITA, absolutely hate how they feel, worse even than the self steer you can get out of PLUS tyres under inflated, don't even want to imagine how much work they must be to climb on, on tight, tech stuff.
Shinook
3 weeks, 4 days ago
@Lynx - on the quality front, the quality of my Starling, REEB, and Nicolai frames (this one especially) are far higher than anything I've had from other brands.
My Transitions constantly broke, had cable routing problems, were out of alignment, bearings constantly died, etc. My Specialized Enduro was OK until it came time to replace the bearings, which was expensive due to the number of them, and had numerous issues with headset cups cracking and rear triangles breaking. My Santa Cruz bikes were mostly well put together but required constant attention to pivot maintenance and I wasn't a huge fan of the suspension performance or geometry. I could run down the list for most mainline manufactured bikes I've owned except maybe Giant.
Meanwhile, REEB/Starling/Nicolai - none of those issues. There is a tangible difference in these brands and it comes from being made in smaller quantities by people who care, along with better QC. I'm not necessarily advocating REEBs pricing is right, but I'd much rather spend the extra few hundred $$s to have one than, say, a Spur which I constantly have down for repairs/maintenance.
Shinook
4 weeks, 2 days ago
I agree the SST is an expensive proposition compared to some other small batch brands. I was fortunate enough to get in on a pre-order and got it fairly discounted, the current price is pretty significant and would give me more pause than what I paid. That said, I think their overall engineering when it comes to kinematics and suspension design makes it perform better than similar bikes I've tried. They also do some things that are a little more innovative/complicated on a small batch frame, like the flex stays. They also keep the weight a little more managed than some other steel bikes I've had. The Steezl has more peers and competition and, while dialed, is a harder sell compared to some others in the category. IMO the SST is more unique (I've had both). I'm personally a little bummed to see the Sqweeb go away and wish I hadn't sold mine, it was a very versatile bike when you consider all the different shock/mounting options available.
I'd be lying if I wasn't saying I was a fanboy, though, I've had REEBs nearly a decade going back to their belt drive/SS only days, my wife and I have cumulatively had a lot of their bikes, so I may not be entirely objective. That said, having ridden some of the other options incl the Murmur in short travel form, I think it's worth it. It's especially worth it IMO if you consider something like a Spur frame that's $3k, I'd rather pay the $400 for something less likely to break constantly even if I have to still source the shock. It's a harder sell if you rotate bikes often.
Again, though, I can't be entirely objective - I have a long running history with them.
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soreribs
1 month ago
So do/did you regret not going with a Twist instead of the Murmur?
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Mike Ferrentino
4 weeks, 2 days ago
No, I'm not really a mullet rider - I'll almost always choose stability and rolling behavior over sharper response. I had a lot of fun on the Twist, but now that the Murmur goes where I point it I am super comfortable on it and very happy with how it handles.
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Mefhisto
4 weeks ago
Hello all!
Nice article, Mike.
Gives me some ideas to think about myself.
What I am contemplating here is: the consensus here makes the suspension setup the culprit for not holding lines properly and jelling with the bike from the beginning.
But, there were also other things that were changed along the way: wheels, tires (and geometry and mind).
I am more thinking about wheels and tires - even for my own setup.
How would you, Mike, rate the effect of each individual change together with all the experience you‘ve got.
What do the others think?
Cheers,
Bene
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Mike Ferrentino
4 weeks ago
Bene, the tires stayed the same, but the wheels changed. However, the new wheels are production units of some fusion-fiber prototype rims that I twisted up onto my own hubs a couple years ago. So, very much an apples to apples ride, except the new wheels are holding air better.
The bars and stem were the very last things to change, and they came about after I was already much happier with the ride. I can't say for sure that the vibration damping properties of the bar are being fully realized yet, but it is early days.
If I was to rank the effectiveness of changes made, they would be as follows: 1, Correct rear spring. 2, getting the ride height on the fork dialed and futzing with damping settings. 3, Rimpact chain damper.
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Mefhisto
4 weeks ago
Thanks for the response.
Last questions here: Butchers with Grid Trail oder Grid Gravity Casing?
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Mike Ferrentino
3 weeks, 6 days ago
For me, personally, Grid Trail. It's a solid, well-supported sidewall and is plenty tough enough for my use. The Gravity casings add a couple hundred grams per tire, if I recall, and I am just not savage enough to justify the added carcass protection.
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voodoobike
3 weeks, 4 days ago
I'm commenting as I've made snarky comments recently on these trendy FS bikes made of steel and titanium. There's also the "trend" of high end brands going to, or back to aluminum. I'm confident it's (still) the better material, being more cost effective and lighter. Tom at Ibis mentioned to me there are some new AF models now. As you well know aluminum is more rigid than steel and titanium which are expensive. These material are arguably best left to hardtails for what gives in the rear, has that satisfying "metal" thing with many meanings to old grumps and avant garde trail riders. Getting fired up on the Starling would be something I myself might do when overthinking and getting stoked while on THC or the other substances making me overly enthusiastic and socially awkward. That said I did not get where your initial inspiration on the Starling came from, yet I have some idea, probably not THC. My buddy Brob in Flag has a Starling that he really thought about in every detail, including the powder coat and anodized colours. He admitted right off it's not about performance in many well thought out words because he's obviously had to. At the very least we had a great time geeking out on that bike, it's deportments, related bits and other inspirations. I was on the THC then too so I quite enjoyed all of it. There's the riding, there's the geeking, the substances; appreciation comes from the entire experience, does it not. A good beat down is of course the foundation. Too bad your Starling did not just ride acceptably at least, I may have predicted that from my arms chair. Yet for me, reading about the Starling and others that started this latest retro frame material drift, the single pivot triggered my deep un-questioned prejudice that's been imbedded into my consciousness long ago. Why anyone who's ridden more than most would slap down the cash money on a bike such as this is nothing to be sad about and all interesting. Anyhü, (the word lifted from Stevil) I think the Esker Howdy Ti is the best Ti FS bike out there with it's DW suspension design and high modulus aluminum rear parts where best utilized. I still would not get one most likley. I'm a function over form kinda dork. I just got a Ripmo and it's been obsessed over from it's conception to myself as I overthink everything. Tom of course asked for my rantings over it. It's plastic, not metal. Look forward to running into you again, perhaps the Banana Belt or elsewhere in the cycleverse.
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Kenny
3 weeks, 4 days ago
I think I got high just reading that...
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Lynx .
3 weeks, 3 days ago
Hey Voodoobike, was keen to read your reply, started reading, but just kept getting lost, any chance you could maybe, you know, edit it and do some paragraphs?
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voodoobike
3 weeks, 3 days ago
Huh, well besides paragraphs, not quite sure what you mean.
Yet basically I was commenting on Mike buying a bike he should have known to be a single pivot and steel to boot, and expecting it to ride like something that actually has modern design and materials? No, but I would not expect it to ride that well. Too many negatives, yet it's a conversation piece at least!
And that said, if one really has to have an alternate material FS bike, (again why really) the Esker Howdy has a suspension that's not a wallow pig on the climbs, yet a rather good design by Dave Wiegle, arguably better than DW Link.
I think that about summarizes the 'stream of conciousness' on my initial post and expands on the Esker Howdy being a very good answer to these single pivot bikes. Let alone these single pivot heavier and flexier steel FS frames, and like for no reason really. Some garage builders can get into the FS bikes so that's something. Some will offer multi-pivot FS bikes, yet that takes a bit more machine tool work. Support your local frame builder! If you have the money, yet most will buy something more reasonable.
I'm not promoting Esker, yet The Howdy is also available in titanium if one really wants to make a statement. These are trendy bikes that offer no performance increase whatsoever. Yet a big part of mountain biking is being trendy, looking cool and so on. That goes for anything I suppose.
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Mike Ferrentino
3 weeks, 2 days ago
Joe Murray, izzat you?
Look, I never expected it to behave like a modern multi-link bike. You might have to do some backdigging, but I tested a mullet Starling a couple years ago and was so surprised by how well it rode - especially because it is a linear rate single pivot - that I liked it enough to want to own one, but with 29" wheels. Simple as that. My needs in this instance were not about all-out performance. I never stated anywhere that I thought it was going to somehow be better than bikes made out of ti or aluminum or carbon. But I did mention that I was feeling a little bit blah about the parade of chinese carbon bikes, and that for my ownership dollar, I would like to spend my money in some other fashion. So that's what I did.
As for Esker, stay tuned.
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voodoobike
3 weeks, 2 days ago
Mike it's me.
I enjoyed reading your story just a few days after my buddy Brob with his rather rad Starling stopped by my place. Recently, I've been thinking about the not carbon FS bike trend; I personally think it's kinda silly. More small frame builders have something else to build now I suppose. Why don't small builders build aluminum FS bikes? Because it's not cool like steel or ti.
I feel a bit foolish, you likely already agree. And I get why Brob bought his Starling. Do something thoughtful rather than be mustache plaid wearing sheeple.
As far as the mullet thing, does a 17mm shorter wheel make that much a difference to the suspension? I'm not sure.
The parade of carbon bikes (some from Viet Nam too) I might understand can be mind-numbing. How many E-bikes busting out literally every week? Not mind numbing for me, but mind blowing. The money that goes into the tooling and the speed of the tech. The world is a crazy place.
Esker made and sadly now gone their carbon FS bikes. These were not the Santa Cruzes, Ibis', Pivots (pronounced Peev-oh) and the like. Many asked, who is Esker? I had an Elkat, that made me a better rider, and a Rowl. The hoverbikes you described in a Bike review. I mention Esker because those were carbon, yet it was a different bike with a suspension better than most, and a name unknown to the plebiscite.
The geo on my Rowl is dated so now I have a Ripmo. The Ibis is pretty damn cool despite it being a darling to the hipsters. It's got a nice rough matt muted green color, fits me great, gimmicky frame storage cubbie. I can ride it sans mustache, Pit Vipers, tartan of some unknown clan, etc.
I've been riding an Esker single speed for a couple of years, butted Ti, light and smooth. It has made me as happy as any plastic bike. And also, I just got a Turner Gila single speed a month ago. I have never been so excited about a new bike in like decades. The details on this bike are on another level, by a guy who has huge cred. So much old school stoke happening. Metal welded tube bikes are engrained in my brain, you know.
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Shinook
3 weeks, 2 days ago
For a long time, REEB made the Sqweeb, which was an aluminum FS bike and went through multiple variations. They stopped with the Steezl and SST because the machining time was much higher compared to the bikes that replaced them, they could make the two more consistently with similar material/jigs. The Steezl still has a aluminum rear triangle, though.
Nicolai and Kavenz are all aluminum. There are others from Europe I'm drawing a blank on atm. Not as many as steel, but they are out there and they mostly crank out some pretty nice frames.
So there are small builders out there making aluminum bikes, they are just fewer.
Lynx .
3 weeks, 1 day ago
@ Voodoobike, all I wanted was for you to edit your post so I could actually read it without having to kill a few brain cells trying to keep where I was in the sea of never ending, continuous text, that's all.
As to that "Turner" you just got yourself, hope you're not an American who believes in supporting local manufacturing, because if so, well then you missed an opportunity to get a fully CUSTOM Ti frame for $1200 USD less from a long time builder, Scott Quiring. I've actually never read SO MUCH absolutely marketing BS on even bigger brands sites than that drivel Turner is trying to pedal.
@Shinook, I believe he's referring to actual small, garage type, builders, not bigger ones that are well known like Nicolai. It's the heat treating, it's a PITA, extends the time it takes and adds more cost and then if something breaks, the whole process again.
@Mike, absolutely understand why you went with this bike, it puts a smile on your face, even if that comes with maybe a bit more work, enjoy it.
voodoobike
3 weeks, 2 days ago
I'll def stay tuned on the Esker Howdy. I think they're on to something.
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voodoobike
3 weeks, 1 day ago
Lynx: Dave Turner I've known since the 80s and his bikes are some, if not the best I've seen. He wanted me to ride the bike and give him feedback. It's made in China. Your comment on "drivel" is immature. It made me want to ignore your post completely, yet I'll say you assume too much.
Mike Ferrentino
3 weeks, 1 day ago
I'm real curious to see how the new alumi-Eskers ride. I was a big fan of the Rowl.
@lynx, Joe here knows a bit about bikes. You can cap on his sentence structure all you want, but be careful making assumptions about his knowledge base or his experience. As for Quiring, not sure where you are getting your math. By my reckoning, a Quiring ti hardtail frame will start at about $900 MORE than a Turner. Sure, Dave outsources his fabrication, but otherwise everything you are dealing with when it comes to Turner is a very personal experience. And given your disdain for the modern low and slack approach, I find it interesting that you think Turner is peddling BS - he is designing bikes that are directly speaking to your interests.
Kenny
3 weeks, 1 day ago
He may know about bikes Mike, but knowledge or not, the statement that small builders aren't using aluminum because its not cool (that's pretty much verbatim) is patently false, and demonstrates a pretty big gap in knowledge about what goes into frame construction.
When people make big absolute statements like that, that are just totally incorrect, it tends to cause others to just write their comments off wholesale (I'm not saying that's right, just human nature).
Aluminum requires post fabrication heat treat, which involves a huge industrial oven with specific temperature control, and also has different fatigue life characteristics that can be tricky to design for when trying to ensure long term durability. Nothing to do with "uncool". I don't think many people would call Raaw, Frameworks, Kavenz, or actofive "uncool" bikes.
So stuff like that just riles up people that know better, especially when it's said with such absolute conviction.
Lynx .
2 weeks, 5 days ago
@Mike, sorry, my bad, stupid fvcking sites sniffing your IP and giving you prices in what they think you want - I think and deal is USD, easy to convert our local dollar 2:1, so no need to convert from Cannuk, or Euro or pounds. Side note, I can't even select a different country/currency on the Turner site, so maybe something they should look into sorting, I shop in USD and I pay in USD, so I'd like the option to choose.
I take back about the price and comments about overseas production then, in an effect, as converted that's $2100 USD, which I guess is about market now, although that is the "sale" price, normal MSRP is $2500 USD and for that $400 USD difference, I'd definitely be going full custom with the likes of Scott Quiring, because quite frankly with what you'd pay for that frame in Asia, it's probably about 1/3 the cost of producing it in the USA, also I think those mass produced, big curve DT bends look like shite, a clear sign, IMHO, that it started as a cookie cutter tubeset.
I'll leave my original comment as such, so no one gets confused as to WTF went on.
Yes, you're absolutely right, Dave has always been a bit "behind the curve" geo wise and that bike would probably cater to my likes OK, the Nitrous would actually be more mine, but I wasn't commenting on that, it was the price and then, if it was in USD would be astronomical compared to a custom Quiring, who I regard as an excellent frame builder, but explanation above.
As to any comment to Voodoobike/Joe, never questioned his knowledge or lack thereof, just, going by what I thought was the cost of the Turner is USD I commented that it maybe wasn't the best purchase.
As to the comment about Dave's bikes being the best, yes, back <2014 maybe, but once 29ers came into the market and then carbon everywhere and more modern geo, and whatever happened with the place that used to fab his frames in the USA, he faded, tried to come back with 650B+ FS somewhere around 2014, but that didn't take either.
voodoobike
3 weeks, 1 day ago
@Kenny, for some reason people take statements on message boards too literally. Verbatim? Whatever, it's an opinion. My comment is that not that many small frame builders use aluminum, which is fairly accurate I think, yet who really cares about how many really? Aluminum is not as cool as steel or Ti and arguably so, yet that is changing somewhat with Esker and Ibis AF bikes. Cool or not, it's an opinion, not "absolute conviction" whatever that means in this case. maybe give yourself a break and don't read between the lines so much. The cheapest bikes are aluminum, and also handmade by humans, and with 7005 aluminum which does not require heat treating at all. It age hardens before it gets put on ship, and in the time it takes to get across the ocean it's ready to ride. 6061 does, like you say, require heat treatment. Yet it can be done on a small scale with a pizza oven if a small builder is so inclined. I used to work on this stuff for a living, so I've had direct experience. it's been at least a few decades since I was going to Taiwan and China 2-5 times a year. Thankfully I'm done with that.
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Kenny
3 weeks, 1 day ago
Well, of course. The "cheapest" bikes don't need any kind of optimization for strength or weight and air ageing to T4 (result of which will be between 80-100% of original strength, exact result being a bit unpredicable in practice) will be "good enough" for the department store.
The priorities are different. Different context and different priorities for "boutique" builders. It's like they say. Building a bridge that stands is easy. Building a bridge that barely stands is hard.
For very small builders the roadmap for how to build steel frames efficiently is pretty well defined. Not so much for aluminum. I'll agree there's some part of that's just cultural, but it's also factor of metallurgical complexity (real or perceived), not just coolness.
That said, again, plenty of "cool" brands using aluminum, 7000 series to boot. Maybe just not within your particular circle of awareness (no offense). They're also heat treating, because they're not Walmart bikes and that's not the context of the conversation. Again, especially with regards to the Germans - Raaw, Nicolai, Kavenz, Last.
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voodoobike
3 weeks, 1 day ago
@Mike, I like what Tim and co. are doing at Esker. I saw Dirty at the Sedona MTB Fest and he gave me a "no plastic" comment, as you know is right up his alley.
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voodoobike
3 weeks, 1 day ago
@Kenny. Could you know my ‘circle of awareness’ any more than I would know your’s? A fair yet rhetorical question. Did I not already mention the assumption thing? Please and thank you. Good luck n have a nice day sir.
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