cam mcrae new normal by deniz merdano
Readers Letters (and photos)

How to Save Seymour Trails? Here's How.

Reading time

Since we learned of Metro Vancouver's decision to begin decommissioning several well-loved and beautifully built trails in the Lower Seymour Conservation Reserve (LSCR), like New Normal, Orleans, Iceland and others, there has been a little movement, but not by Metro. The nsmbA, our local advocacy organization, apologized for the way they handled the mess, without saying specifically what they were apologizing for, and have since promised to listen more to the membership and do better. We'll have to wait and see what that looks like.

There hasn't however, been any change to Metro's policy and they began decommissioning New Normal almost immediately. Why did they start with the most popular trail on their list, not to mention one that was at the top of the sustainability scale and incredibly well-maintained by dedicated volunteer builders? Based on the tone we have heard from Metro, it may have been a decision aimed at maximizing the damage to send a strong message to the community. In reality, it felt vindictive.

While it sounds like nothing positive has happened, public awareness has grown, we've had an informed and well-spoken mountain biker on CBC radio pleading our case, and we've gotten the attention of politicians, particularly those who are on the Water Committee, which oversees the LSCR.

Reid Pearce

"The recent action by Metro Vancouver to deconstruct two very popular, sustainably and safely constructed but unauthorized trails is a travesty. This is sorely needed recreational infrastructure being provided by skilled volunteers free of charge to the public - imagine tennis or hockey players providing their own public nfrastructure!"  Letter writer Reid Pearce getting gnarly on Empress.

When we first addressed this issue, I put out a call to action to mountain bikers who were unhappy with these heavy handed actions; please contact these politicians. I listed the email address of every member of the Water Committee and then, as an afterthought, I asked them to CC me. To my surprise, 22 letter writers did so,* and I was so impressed by their letters that I decided to share excerpts from some of them with you.

*This likely represents a small percentage of the actually letters written

It's important for those who oversee the LSCR realize that their actions have an impact on both the taxpayers and voters who pay their salaries, and on visitors who bring economic activity to our province. These trails are a huge community asset and destroying them using government employees does not sit well with many local constituents who use these trails.

I didn't have space to use every letter, but here is a representative selection. Every single letter was well-written, rational, thoughtful and even polite. Hats off to everyone who took the time to write. If you haven't written yet and would like to, I will put the addresses at the bottom of this article.


I am not the only small business owner wondering why they should still live in Vancouver if the way we choose to recreate is just as difficult as the economic realities of living in the lower mainland. - Terry Brown, Co-founder, Container Brewing, Vancouver, B.C.

Full Letter

Dear Don,*

I write to you as a concerned resident who lives at the base of Mount Seymour, as a physician who cares deeply about public health and a father of three kids who love hiking and biking in the Seymour forest. 

It is disheartening to hear that the LSCR is destroying trails on our mountain. Destroying well-built trails is a waste of the taxpayer's money. These efforts are counterproductive and misguided. Most of the sanctioned trails built on Seymour over the years were built by caring and thoughtful trail builders who care about the environment and who wish to make sustainable trails that have lasted decades. The trails you have targeted are some of, if not the best on Seymour. 

It's very likely that your actions on Seymour will create environmental damage by displacing riders and encouraging them to do their work deeper in the woods. Mountain bikers who love the forest are persistent. 

I would like the LSCR to consider the following proposal. Adopt a plan for trail creation and maintenance on Mount Seymour.  Work collaboratively with the NSMBA to sanction the building of at least 1 trail per 1-2 years. Provide the licenses and oversight and let the expert trail builders create sustainable and environmentally responsible trails that the users will love. By adopting a policy such as this you focus the efforts of those who care the most about our mountain and dissuade the building of unsanctioned trails. 

Please consider this proposal. If Metro Vancouver and the LSCR does not start working productively and in good faith with those who use the mountain for recreation history will continue to repeat itself. 

Thank you for your attention. I look forward to hearing your response. 

Travis Schisler, 42, District of North Vancouver
Anaesthesiologist at Vancouver General Hospital

*Don Bell is a North Vancouver City Councillor and former Mayor.

brad hill

"What is being missed here is that the amount of rogue building or land use could be dramatically reduced simply by working with the community who is out in the forest, making use of our incredible terrain. A good way to lower rogue building would be to have happy trail builders working with you as a team. It would be a great way to reduce a lot of tension, while improving trail use, helping curb any unknown/rogue building and bringing in more riders nationwide to come and enjoy the local attractions. The north shore is world renown and lots of people travel to Vancouver specifically to ride these areas.

These trails which bring in tourism money are being built....for free! By passionate people!"

Passionate letter Writer Brad Hill (Vancouver, B.C.) getting gnarly in the snow.


Excerpt:

Some of the trails listed for closure, including New Normal, Orleans, and Iceland, are safe, expertly built, sustainable, and actively maintained.  These trails in no way resemble some of the trails that the North Shore was famous for 30 years ago.  Using natural geographic contours and rock, with robust consideration of adequate drainage, has replaced skinny human-built structures high in the trees.  It does not make sense to me to use public service employees to close these trails down indefinitely by effectively destroying them. Cutting cedar bridges apart and throwing the detritus into the woods with exposed nails is not helping anyone and, in my opinion, creates a safety hazard for future hikers and users of the land.  

Adrian White, New Westminster, B.C.

Adrian White

Adrian White with his "dearly departed trail buddy, Bean," riding Boogieman on Seymour.


Excerpt:

I urge you to reconsider any plans that would jeopardize trails like New Normal, Iceland, and Orleans, which are maintained by dedicated volunteers and cherished by the community for their quality and sustainability. Preserving these trails not only respects taxpayer investment but also fosters responsible outdoor recreation that aligns with Metro Vancouver's environmental stewardship goals.

Destroying these well-built trails without consultation with the riding community is not only shortsighted but also risks exacerbating the issues it aims to solve. While I acknowledge the need to address unauthorized trail building, I believe a collaborative approach is essential. Engaging with the riding community to promote sustainable trail practices and addressing concerns through dialogue rather than unilateral action is paramount.

Ryan Lucy, Vancouver, B.C.


Excerpt: addressed to Mike Little, District of North Vancouver Mayor

It feels petty and retaliatory under the guise of 'environmental protection'. I'm not sure how chainsawing trail structures, then rolling them into the bush adjacent to the trail does anything to help the environment... Specifically NN and Iceland were two gems of trails. Iceland has been running for years and being a large part on rock and bedded in forest floor, is not hurting anybody. NN has been built to an excellent standard and is diligently upgraded and maintained by dedicated trail builders. Spending any time, effort or money destroying these trails is petty at best, but feels vindictive and malevolent. Our elected officials and governments are supposed to work for us and not the other way around.

Cameron Coatta, 43 years old, District of North Vancouver
Technical Sales Rep, Earls Industries


cameron coatta ridge o rama

Cameron Coatta Enjoying what B.C. has to offer mountain bikers.

Excerpt: Addressed to Entire Metro Vancouver Water Board Committee

I am a City of North Vancouver resident and homeowner, as well a mountain biker, dog walker, skier and hiker on our local mountains. I'm in my 40s, and a huge part of the reason I live in North Vancouver is due to the access to nature and natural recreation. I'm writing to you today due to the recent actions Metro Vancouver has taken to 'decommission' certain trails in the Lower Seymour Conservation Reserve.

The stance that New Normal will never be considered for official inclusion in the trail network because it was a 'rogue trail' and only trails that are sanctioned before build will be allowed also rings a little hollow to me - as far as I'm aware, there has never been a documented case of a new trail being added this way, and there is no process described anywhere for making this happen. Existing sanctioned trails like Neds, CBC and now Cambodia have all been a result of formerly unsanctioned trails eventually being adopted into the network after decades of back-and-forth. Is it any surprise that this is seen as the de facto process?

I'd like to know why Metro is spending my tax dollars to destroy parts of the forest that I use. I'd like to see and review Metro's process for new trail builds, and see real examples of this actually being used and resulting in new trails in a reasonable timeframe. I'd like Metro to reconsider their stance of fighting their own constituents with regard to recreation in the mountains. I'd like to see a real effort to incorporate the best of these existing trails into the network - New Normal, Iceland and Orleans are probably the best examples here. I'd like to know how I can affect Metro's stance and policy towards using Metro land for recreational purposes.

Anonymous, City of North Vancouver


andy reynolds

Removing trails as well-built, sustainable, and well-maintained as New Normal and Iceland, without providing comparable alternatives, shows a failure to consider the needs of the mountain biking community. These trails were safer and more environmentally conscious than many sanctioned trails. How does destroying such assets with no replacements or even a plan for future alternatives make sense? Andy Reynolds

Excerpt:

Here’s the challenge: the current strategy feels heavy-handed and shortsighted. What if instead of using resources on destroying trails and leaving the debris scattered through the forest (curious how this can be considered an ecologically sound act itself)—Metro Van worked with the community to educate riders on sustainable practices and help mitigate unsanctioned trail-building by actually being involved in the process? Making riders allies instead of adversaries could lead to long-term solutions that align with everyone’s goals.

I’d love to hear your perspective on this. Is there a way for us to open a dialogue and find common ground? I’m confident there’s a better path forward—one that strengthens both the trails and the trust between Metro and the local community.

We just want what is fair…

Alex Cronje, 32, Vancouver, B.C.
Partnerships Manager at SOLE Footbeds


alex cronje 2

Alex Cronje enjoying the trails on Mt. Fromme

Excerpt: Addressed to Entire Metro Vancouver Water Board Committee

The reactionary and punitive nature of these trail closures does nothing to discourage trail builders, only pushes them further into the wilderness around the trail networks. Furthermore, measures taken to decommission these trails makes them more dangerous to ride for those who choose to ignore the closures. Closing trails on the basis of their unsanctioned origin is also dubious, since essentially all MTB trails in Metro Van began "unsanctioned."

The NSMBA and the mountain bike community at large is a passionate group of individuals whose primary goal is to expand and enjoy a well maintained, diverse, sustainable network of trails, something Vancouver is already internationally recognized for. With more meaningful and respectful outreach, Metro Vancouver has the opportunity to collaborate with this community to ensure trail builders are well-informed about sustainable practices. In return, these authorities have a responsibility to respect their constituents and support the responsible expansion of this network.

I hope that you and other policymakers in the region will pay closer attention to the needs of the community on this issue, and reverse the decision to decommission these invaluable trails. I hope that all concerned parties can move forward with a spirit of collaboration and mutual respect, and that the input of the trail users in question will have its value recognized.

Sincerely,
Shawn Friesen, 31, Vancouver, B.C.

shawn friesen

Shawn Friesen, Another one of our passionate and heroic letter writers.

Full Letter: Addressed to Burnaby Councillor Joe Keithley (formerly known as Joey Shithead, vocalist and lead guitar of the Punk Band DOA)

My name is Devin Zoller and I'm a mountain biker from the States. This morning I learned of the choice to remove mountain bike trails on Seymour Mountain and felt compelled to write and express my dismay.

These trails and the entire tourism ecosystem they create is a unique feature of the North Shore- one I've been part of since I started riding during the 90s. You have an extremely rare resource on your hands, one that people around the entire world know of and hope to ride some day. Those people fly and drive through your province and city to experience the Shore, and they spend a lot of money to do so. Hearing about this decision to remove trails in the manner you've chosen makes me question my summer plans to visit North Van with my family.

I do not dispute your right to manage land under your jurisdiction as you see fit- but removing extremely well built trails with the justification that they did were not properly applied for, while not having an actual formal process is pure Kafkaesque absurdity. While I'm obviously not a resident of Canada and can effect no true change through voting in your local elections, I can (and many other riders from the States can as well) vote with my wallet and choose to avoid your city. 

My hope is to hear that you will create a robust system that allows the passionate riding community to work with land stewards to apply for new trails and thus disincentivize unauthorized building by giving the trail builders a legitimate path forward.

I appreciate your time, 

-Devin Zoller


Devin Zoller, Portland, OR
Account Manager for Specialist Fabricating Company


Response from West Vancouver Mayor, Mark Sager

Hello Devin,

Thanks for your email and bringing this to my attention. I have asked the Metro staff for a full details. I too love the trails.

All the best

Mark  

Mark Sager

Mayor  |  District of West Vancouver

t: 604-925-7000  | westvancouver.ca

devin zoller

Devin Zoller of Portland OR, racing the Test of Metal in Squamish in 1999.

Excerpts:

While it is understandable that MetroVan would seek to leverage the NSMBA to communicate with the mountain bike community, this points to a lack broader and effective community engagement and education efforts from MetroVan, and the lack of clear and timely approval processes for new or existing trails.

Truly, the optics are not good for Metro - given the highly publicized 2.8B cost overruns  creating higher costs for local residents, and the huge economic significance of mountain biking to the North Shore, dedicating resources to destroy trails that will only increase the likelihood of injury and push unsanctioned builders to build new trails seems absurd. The demand for trails is only increasing and will continue to regardless of these types of shortsighted actions.

Rory MacLeod, 31, Public Servant, Vancouver, B.C.

rory mcleod

Letter-writer Rory MacLoed rocking the hardtail in a (DH?) race.

Excerpts:

I last came to the North Shore in 2015 for the BC Bike race. 10 years later my kids are finally old enough for me to plan a family vacation there from California.    It kills me to read about the destruction of trails like New Normal, Iceland and Orleans, trails that are built sustainably, linking together slabs of rock.  These are the kinds of trails we want to ride when we visit and spend our tourist money in North Van vs heading up to Whistler or the famous slabs of Squamish.

Attempts at decommissioning these trails will just result in more ecosystem and watershed damage, at significant expense, while likely being quickly re-opened by the dedicated volunteer digging community. Your official stance is extremely short-sighted; "we're tearing down your trails because you didn't ask us, but you can't ask us, and even if you did, we'd say no."    To my knowledge, unsanctioned trails are the only way any trails have been added to the authorized trail network before this.

We all acknowledge that trails inexpertly scratched in with little consideration of drainage, alignment or sustainability are a problem and most riders would like to find a solution. It's possible to imagine a world where mountain bikers are partners in this effort, but it's unlikely to happen when the land manager takes hasty action with no consultation of the ridership or is completely ignorant of the difference between expertly built sustainable well-maintained trails, and trail-trash.

LCSR needs to find a way to allow well designed trails to expand on Seymour. NorthVan is the original mecca.

Anonymous, Nuclear Power Engineer/Trail Gnome, California


Excerpts:

The North Shore is an iconic cycling destination, and home to many of the original pioneers of modern mountain biking and trail building. It is a shame to see the reputation of the Shore tarnished by the recent punitive and tone-deaf actions of an unresponsive land manager (Metro Vanocuver).

Remove the red tape, and think outside the box. Squamish, Cumberland, Nelson, and many other rapidly growing BC mountain bike communities have managed trail expansion in a healthy and collaborative way, whilst also balancing ecological concerns and other land users. Why can't the North Shore (and Metro Vancouver) do the same? 

Kind regards, 

Mark Poskitt, Naniamo, Regional Manager, First Nations Health Authority

andy reynolds 2

"Your actions have alienated a community that could greatly ally in sustainable land management. Mountain biking is deeply rooted in a counter-culture spirit that thrives on creativity, collaboration, persistence, and RESISTANCE. Pushing back against this culture is a battle you won’t win, as it will only lead to further division, resentment, and unsanctioned trail-building." Andy Reynolds, Riding Brittania

Excerpts:

I would urge you to speak on behalf of myself and the communities which live, play, build businesses and add to the economic prosperity of this region, to create a meaningful process which allows for these communities to see and feel progress with respect to the land which really belongs to all of us. 

I did not have to choose Vancouver to start a business, and it was certainly not easy to start a business in this city. I am not the only small business owner wondering why they should still live in Vancouver if the way we choose to recreate is just as difficult as the economic realities of living in the lower mainland.

I hope that my voice can be heard and that it can resonate in a way which would encourage you and your fellow board members to reconsider the actions being taken by Metro Vancouver and hopefully create some meaningful dialogue.

Thank you for the opportunity to express my concerns,

Terry Brown, Co-founder, Container Brewing, Vancouver, B.C.

terrry brown

Terry Brown, co-founder of Container Brewing, and sidekick.

Full Letter:

I am from Salt Lake City, UT, USA and come to visit Vancouver on a yearly basis to ride the trails on the North Shore. I am an advanced rider and although there are lots of technically difficult trails in the area, there are not many "sanctioned trails" that challenge me. A big reason that I enjoy coming is riding some of the "unsanctioned" trails in North and West Vancouver as they can often be much more challenging. I understand that many are built poorly and without regard for good trail building practices, but many of the ones that you have recently decommissioned were not, and are built and maintained in a much better fashion than a majority of the sanctioned trails.

I think that spending time and money on destroying these trails is a waste, and to be honest, people will likely build even more trails now. Also, using environmental concerns as the crux of your argument is so incredibly silly given the expansions approved for the ski resorts as well as the construction of expensive condos being done in the area and encroaching on forest land. Neither of these, which are significantly more environmentally impactful, seem to be an issue and I'm sure it is because of the financial side of things. I am very aware of the local history of trail building and trail destroying on the North Shore (I first visited twenty years ago as a teenager) and think that your methods are not only antiquated, but downright insulting to the local biking community.

I have decided that, because of your actions, I will no longer be coming to Vancouver and spending my money in local hotels, restaurants, businesses, etc. for my two-week trips every year. I will be patronizing communities where the local government has shown more respect to, and earnest engagement with, the bike community.

Thank you for your time in reading this.

Jon Judkins, Physician, Salt Lake City, UT


"I have decided that, because of your actions, I will no longer be coming to Vancouver and spending my money in local hotels, restaurants, businesses, etc. for my two-week trips every year. I will be patronizing communities where the local government has shown more respect to, and earnest engagement with, the bike community." Jon Judkins, Physician, Salt Lake City, UT

Where are We Now?

When I wrote my first article, there was an upcoming meeting of the Water Committee on the books. That meeting was cancelled. I have been trying to speak to Heidi Walsh of Metro Vancouver and was asked to submit some questions. Hopefully she will agree to have a conversation with me.

Clearly this isn't over. Any of you who feel inspired by what you've read above, we could use your support, but not just any support. I have learned a few things along the way about dealing with municipal politicians and getting their attention.

Include your age, occupation, and city of residence if you are comfortable doing so. If you would like to have your letter read, and perhaps receive a response, if possible, address your letter to a politician who governs in the community where you live. If not, choose one politician and CC the rest. Mike Little, Don Bell, or Mike Sager, who are all based on the North Shore, are excellent choices. I would also CC Heidi Walsh. If you'd like, feel free to CC me as well. I have been energized by your letters and I'm keen to read more. I will include the email addresses below.

Thanks again to everyone who has gotten involved.

West, Brad (C) – Port Coquitlam​​ email: [email protected]
Sager, Mark (VC) – West Vancouver email [email protected]
Albrecht, P​aul – Langley City email: [email protected]
Bell, Don – North Vancouver City email: [email protected]
Guichon, Alicia – Delta email: [email protected]
Hodge, Craig – Coquitlam email: [email protected]
Keithley, Joe – Burnab​y email: [email protected]
Little, Mike – North Vancouver District email: [email protected]
MacDonald, Nicole – Pitt Meadows email: [email protected]
Meiszner, Peter – Vancouver email: [email protected]
Rindt, Rob – Langley Township​ email: [email protected]
Stutt, Rob – Surrey​ email: [email protected]

Walsh, Heidi - [email protected]

For any email you send, cc [email protected]

And CC me if you'd like - [email protected]

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Comments

nzstormer
+15 Sven Pete Roggeman Lee Lau Mammal Kenneth Perras Henry Chinaski HeyBaumeister grambo YallaNV mrbrett Derek Baker Todd Hellinga Caleb Del Begio Jeremy Hiebert Shmarv

I know that the NSMBA has a meeting with Metro later in the month to try to figure out a productive way forward on this issue (as part of their improved communication promise, they really should be sharing this info). 

I've been a bit of a loudmouth throughout this drama, and sent multiple emails to both the NSMBA and Metro. I tried to take a productive approach, and have had a positive email chain with Heidi at Metro as a result. She offered to meet with me to discuss this, and as a run on from that - I have been invited to join the meeting with the NSMBA. 

I am currently very unhappy with the NSMBA, but I don't see a realistic way to move forward without them, so I want to support them where I can. I do think that we members need to continue to hold them to account in a much more thorough way than we have in the past.

I don't know what's going to come out of the meeting, but the fact they are willing to meet, and to include me in that is encouraging to me at least.

Reply

cooperquinn
+1 Cam McRae Jeremy Hiebert Lee Lau

Nice work, sir.

Reply

Lee-Lau
+2 Cam McRae Shmarv

Thanks for the persistence Mike.  They've blown off another interested group of environmental and engineering professionals.  

It's a bit perturbing that Metro's only action is to work with the NSMBA, the very group that got co-opted and suckered into front- running for Metro.  Also the very group that has been knee-capped and played patsy for Metro for the last 10 years.

I suppose this is characteristic of Metro's low standards for public accountability

Reply

cam@nsmb.com
+2 Lee Lau Shmarv

Well said Michael, and thanks for getting involved. 

Hopefully I will (eventually) be able to have a dialogue with Heidi as well but thus far I am still waiting.

Reply

Kruetters
0

Hello Cam,

I cc'd you on an email yesterday - I am the fellow who started the petition and have a meeting with MV this coming friday.

I am about to sit down with Penny and another community member this afternoon at Wildeye at 1pm to sort out how I plan on structuring the discussion at that meeting in preparation - if you want to reach out to me via the email from me last night I can loop you in as Heidi was fine with other people being there.

Kurt

Reply

Lee-Lau
+9 Mammal Konrad Cr4w Henry Chinaski Cam McRae Pete Roggeman Curveball Abies grambo

Thanks Cam.   Appreciate the continuing efforts

Reply

Da-Peach
+7 Cam McRae Konrad Pete Roggeman Henry Chinaski Curveball Abies Shmarv

I wrote a letter and distributed it to the addresses you provided.  I forgot to CC you...  oops.  I received a couple of responses, so hopefully MV starts to engage more meaningfully.

Was wondering how that meeting went with MV.  Disheartening to hear it was cancelled.

Reply

cam@nsmb.com
+4 Curveball Abies Lee Lau Shmarv

Great work Chris! No worries on not cc'ing me though. The letter is the important part. 

I actually wasn't sure anyone would include me but when they did, it was a great opportunity to show what our community is capable of.

Reply

Lee-Lau
+4 mrbrett Cam McRae Couch_Surfer Shmarv

Since we wont be getting information from either Metro Van or the NSMBA 

Here's Mystery Creek re the Ned's Bridge.  284K for the bridge

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://metrovancouver.org/bidding-opportunities/Documents/awarded-bids-2023.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiL8f-0nNGLAxUqATQIHTQ0CxMQFnoECG8QAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw3TurfJ2LxIF3-QQASkghFd

I searched 2023 and 2024 RFPs and these are the only bridge contracts listed 

Source https://metrovancouver.org/bidding-opportunities/awarded-bids

Reply

sanesh-iyer
+3 Cam McRae Pete Roggeman Curveball

This is amazing

Reply

monsieurgage
+3 Lee Lau Henry Chinaski Cam McRae

Andy made a good point about the counter culture containing a strong sense of resistance.  Metro has not changed how we ride or where, they simply demonstrated hubris and hypocrisy with the destruction of literal low hanging fruit.  Relationships between governing bodies, the NSMBA, builders, riders, and the involved public at large will now take years to repair what bad faith arguments and reckless actions have destroyed.

I refuse to be disheartened.  Jaded, maybe.  These letters are proof of the community's conviction and enduring spirit.  Countless beyond those few who wrote are the many more avid riders and builders out there who create the space we recreate in and make it possible for us to live the way we do.  My thanks goes out to the MTB community write large for their passion and service.  My heart felt sorrow to those who make bridges and equally to those who destroy them.  You do not understand what feckless aggression and antipathy to something so wholesome can bring.

To Cam and the whole crew, thanks for helping spread the word and using your platform to inform.  I look forward to the future discussions and the subsequent NSMB editorials but I dread the day when Metro looks us in the eyes and claims righteous guardianship over the land as sky scrapers rise and trees fall.

Reply

mrbrett
+2 Mammal Henry Chinaski

Has anyone FOIPd MV? A few carefully selecsearch terms might narrow it down quite a bit (to reduce or avoid costs to FOIP) and make for an interesting article and shed a little light on the decision to dismantle some of the trails.

Reply

Lee-Lau
+2 grambo YallaNV

$700 fee when asking for the cost of 3 bridges on Ned's, CBC, Upper Cambodia/Orleans (materials, heli transport, time).

That's Metro transparency for you.

Reply

grambo
+1 Lee Lau

What do you guess the total bill on that insanity was? $250k? More?

Reply

Henry-Chinaski
+2 Lee Lau YallaNV

Don't they have to provide three free hours? Maybe it's easiest to split requests into smaller chunks between lots of people.

At 30$/hr, that's ridiculous. Unlawful, even.

Reply

YallaNV
+1 Henry Chinaski

Here is the exact amount from their response: 

We write further to your request dated January 27, 2025 for access to the following records

pursuant to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act (the “Act”):

 Records detailing the costs associated with the planning, materials, installation, and any

other expenses related to the construction and installation of the following metal bridges in

the Seymour Trail Network:

1. Ned’s Atomic Dustbin: Coordinates 49.345396, -122.980876.

2. Cabin Trail: Coordinates 49.345958, -122.976748.

3. Cambodia: Coordinates 49.349706, -122.977688.

The time frame for the requested records includes all relevant activities leading up to the

completion of the bridges. Please include records of contractor bids, project budgets,

invoices, and other documentation that specifies the financial breakdown.

Section 75 of the Act provides that public bodies may charge a fee for providing certain Freedom of

Information services. The estimated fee for the records you have requested is $690.00, itemized as

follows:

Locating and retrieving records

Rate: 24 hours at $7.50 per 1\4 hour

No charge for the first 3 hours

$720.00

-$90.00

Reply

Henry-Chinaski
+3 YallaNV mrbrett Shmarv

Thanks for posting! It’s really helpful and gives some insight into what to ask for.

Did you request a detailed breakdown of how Metro Vancouver justified the 24 hours of work you paid them for? Seeing the steps they claimed were necessary for retrieving those records would be hilarious.

Also, did you obtain the complete records, and are you planning to post them publicly? A GitHub repository might be useful for centralizing these documents so others don’t have to submit duplicate FOI requests.

Reply

YallaNV
+2 Henry Chinaski Shmarv

Ha! I should. 

I haven't received anything yet. 

I responded asking for the invoices associated with the bridge fabrication and installation. Hopefully that takes less than 3 hours... 

It would also be interesting to see how cost of one marine-grade aluminum bridge on Neds compares to one of the similarly-sized cedar bridges on Parks land, DNV, vs WestVan.

Reply

Henry-Chinaski
0

I'd have been tempted to ask for the email communications related to these expenses, too. If only for the pure drama. I bet there will be some interesting conversations there.

cdel
+5 Lee Lau Henry Chinaski Cam McRae GeoffRey Shmarv

I'm willing to help fund an FOI request specifically for all records related to decommissioning of LSCR trails. Would love to shed some light on how the NSMBA "negotiates" on our behalf. DM me and can coordinate.

b-rat
+2 Henry Chinaski Shmarv

Here is the cost estimate for all information relating to the recent decommisioning... $1000. 

We write further to your request dated January 23, 2025 for access to the following records

pursuant to the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act (the “Act”):

1. Internal reports, meeting notes, emails, decision-making documentation, and policies or

guidelines related to the decommissioning of "New Normal," "Iceland," and "Suicide Jimmy"

in the Lower Seymour Conservation Reserve (LSCR) for the period January 1, 2021 to present

(January 23, 2025); and

2. All correspondence, such as emails, meeting notes, letters, or any other written

communication, between Metro Vancouver/LSCR staff and North Shore Mountain Bike

Association (NSMBA) volunteers, board members, and paid employees for the period

January 1, 2021 to present (January 23, 2025).

Section 75 of the Act provides that public bodies may charge a fee for providing certain Freedom of

Information services. The estimated fee for the records you have requested is $1,020.00, itemized

as follows:

Locating and retrieving records

Rate: 33 hours at $7.50 per 1\4 hour

No charge for the first 3 hours

$990.00

-$90.00

Preparing records for disclosure

4 hours at $7.50 per 1\4 hour $120.00

Total Estimate $1,020.00

I will narrow it down and get some information unless someone is willing to pay for everything.

mrbrett
+3 Couch_Surfer Cam McRae Shmarv

I work at a different large Canadian municipality and would be absolutely and completely grilled for a quote like that for a FOIP request. It’s astonishing that this is what’s allowed at MV. So breaking that out per bridge, a human is going to have to spend eight hours each looking for responsive records?!?

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tavaset
+3 Lee Lau Henry Chinaski Cam McRae

You should be able to look thru the awarded RFP's. They typically have the dollar amount. Not necessarily the final bill with change orders etc. but at least the ballpark. I took a quick look and a bridge replacement on Mystery Creek in 2023 was awarded at $280K.

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Henry-Chinaski
+2 Lee Lau Cam McRae

I'm currently working my way toward FOI. The leadership at Metro seems to love to have "conversations" and "meetings" where they don't need to provide any concrete information. I think handing over the actual dialogue about the decommissioning might be illuminating.

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cdel
+1 Henry Chinaski

please DM. Have a few people willing to contribute to FOI costs if you're able to coordinate with metro.

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Henry-Chinaski
0

Sent.

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inshane
+2 Pete Roggeman Cam McRae

Thank you Cam

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YallaNV
+2 Lee Lau Shmarv

This was the generic response to every email:

Thank you for your interest in North Shore mountain bike trails.

Metro Vancouver manages the 5,668-hectare Lower Seymour Conservation Reserve (LSCR) to maintain its recreation, education, and environmental values in conjunction with its capacity as a water reserve. The primary goals are to ensure public safety, protect the environment, and provide opportunities for a variety of different user groups.

Metro Vancouver works closely with the North Shore Mountain Biking Association to manage the bike trail system in the LSCR and address any issues that arise.

Your feedback has been received and will be carefully considered in coordination with NSMBA.

Thank you again for your interest and for reaching out.

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haileyelise
+1 Cam McRae

Thanks for putting this together Cam. It's good to see the MTB community working together.

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Shinook
+1 Cam McRae

Good luck folks, cheering you on and hoping for a good result from afar

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mike-wallace
+1 Cam McRae

Hats off to the letter writers and the effort they put in.   That is no small thing these days.  

The letters are also a good reminder of the international draw and economic effects.  That is no small thing either these days.

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Gdreej
0

@Cam Mcrae @Michael Stormer @YallaNV, thanks for keeping the fire on Metro's feet. Z your FOI request plays hardball but their paywall is nearly impenetrable, bureaucrats are likely charging such exorbitant fees for deciphering field notes written on the back of Clif bar packages. I wonder why Metro has such a boner for fabricated bridges considering there are wooden bridges along Bridle Path, amongst other zones? 

I hope Heidi can shed new light on trail progression in the NSMBA meeting, and have a dialogue with Cam too.

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heckler
+1 Shmarv

Consider Mystery Creek and it's Cambodia tributary flow into the Seymour, I expect there are riparian setbacks at play with the size and span of the new metal bridges.  No civil engineer in his right mind would design those heights and spans with deadfall on public contracts.   Aluminum should last many, many more years than wood.  

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/industry/forestry/managing-our-forest-resources/silviculture/silvicultural-systems/silviculture-guidebooks/riparian-management-area-guidebook

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