Rider and Hiker Altercation on Fromme
This introduction was re-written on Sunday, Feb. 1st.
I have now posted the hiker’s version of events here.
Circumstances have changed surrounding these events and this account has been partially edited to reflect that. Later this evening I will be publishing the hiker’s version of events.
I will go into this further when I publish the other woman’s version of events, but I would like to express that I regret moving forward with this piece without more information. Based on what I was told, I felt there was a risk of further altercations, and I hoped my article might prevent that. Instead it likely inflamed the situation and had other unintended negative consequences. I would like to apologize to anyone who was affected by my poor judgement.
My post-secondary education did not include journalism courses and dealing with the issues I’ve had to tackle recently has been a new challenge. I have made mistakes and learned from them. Moving forward I will proceed with more caution and not rush to publish information that is not complete.
The Mountain Biker’s version
On Tuesday January 27th at approximately 9:30 AM, a 24-year old female mountain biker, who wishes to remain anonymous, told me she was descending Expresso Trail on Mount Fromme. The trail has been designated ‘Mountain Bike Primary’ by the District of North Vancouver. The woman told me she stopped to speak with a group of four older women who had six unleashed dogs with them. The mountain biker told me she politely informed the group that two other riders were coming down the trail behind her, and that they should be careful.
The younger woman told me that one of the women in the group, described as between the 60 and 65 years of age, began yelling at the her; “you have no right telling me where I should and shouldn’t walk.”
I was told that the older woman was hiking with two poles and she struck the younger woman in the buttocks with the sharp end of one pole. The younger woman told me she tripped trying to get away, sustaining some bruises on her legs.
“When she hit me I said ‘you have no right to touch me’”, the younger woman recounted, adding, “she was angry that I said that. I asked for her name and she said ‘there’s no fucking way I’m giving you my name.’ After she hit me I left.”
The younger woman reported the incident to police, who instructed her to get a photo the next time she saw the woman.
That day came sooner than expected. Speaking to the alleged victim Friday evening, January 30th, she recounted their second encounter to me; “this morning – same time 9:30 – 10 ish, I was riding down Pennzoil (a trail near bottom of Mount Fromme – Ed.) and I stopped and tried to take a picture of her. She charged me and came at me swinging.” The victim recounted repeated blows from the older woman. “She threw me to the ground. I was trying to get up and she continued to hit me so I started screaming for help. So she screamed at her three dogs, attack, attack!”
Eventually the young woman got away and rode to the bottom of the trail.
“I called 911 right away and (name omitted) was there and his friends. I told them, ‘there is a lady who attacked me coming down the trail’ and she and her three dogs started walking down the street. She was walking west on Braemar. She just walked away. She was on foot and she walked away faster than the cops could come.”
Update – Saturday am
When I first wrote about this story, after speaking to the victim, she told me that she had bitten her attacker in self-defence. She was open about this but asked me not to report on the bite. I felt it was my responsibility to respect her wishes and I did so.
In the comments below it has been revealed that the older woman was bitten and it was suggested that this was being concealed to obscure the truth. In actuality the victim didn’t want to recount this fact because she felt ashamed. “I have never hurt anyone before,” she told me.
According to the younger woman, the bite occurred early in the confrontation. Apparently the older woman was trying to get the victim’s phone, seemingly because she was aware a photo had been taken. Because the victim continued to hold onto her phone, while being struck repeatedly in the face, she said she felt her only defence was to bite.
The victim would like to express that her main concern is that there is no more violence on the trails, perpetrated by this woman or anyone else. Please do not engage this person or attempt to take the law in your own hands. No good can come of it.
The hiker’s version of events can be found here.
Update – Saturday pm
I received an email today from a woman claiming to be the older woman in this incident. Here’s what she said:
I am the older woman. I think before you wrote your article you should have spoken with me. Her version of the attack is totally misconstrued. The police and a mountain biker have my version. I have nothing to hide. I was definitely the victim yesterday and today.
I have no issues with mountain bikers. 98% are friendly, slowing down when we cross paths. I know lots of them.
You need to know the truth!
I responded that I was willing and eager to hear her version of the events. Unfortunately she is leaving on a trip. She told me she may respond to me via email while she is away or by phone when she returns. She did not tell me when that would be. If and when I receive her version of events I will present them to you.
I continue to believe, based on conversations with trail runners, hikers and mountain bikers, that most groups in North Vancouver interact harmoniously, which puts me at a loss to explain these incidents.
Comments
Mike LV89
9 years, 2 months ago
I can't believe you posted half the story and only the older woman's picture! As an aside, the woman, with her hands clasped in front of her and her poodle off-leash by her side don't look very threatening. Where's the picture of the younger woman too? I hope no one attacks the older woman as a result of your irresponsible posting. Two things I did hear: the older woman apologized prior to the younger woman getting in her face with a camera and a mob of bikers taunted the older woman the following day as she tried to hike. They were waking for her at the trail head. Scary group you have provoked, Cam. I hope you are held at least partially criminally responsible if any harm should come to that poor older lady (the one your friend bit and you covered for). I also hope the more serious crime (the bite and push by the young, obnoxious biker) is prosecuted appropriately. It'd be nice if everyone could get along, but you militant types that act and blog ignorantly without regard for saftey make it hard for people to not be afraid of the young biking community of which I am a part. And to echo someone else's question: what kind of person bites someone?!?
Reply
Mike LV89
9 years, 2 months ago
I will say, I think it was wise to take down the pictures and proper to modify your blog and apologize. I hope everyone can move on with lessons learned and no more violence.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I did that Sunday Mike.
This as well. Here's the link to get you up to speed.
Reply
Woody
9 years, 2 months ago
have fun deleting comments, mods? so much for an open conversation. I guess its OK to delete comments if they don't push your narrative in your desired direction.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
If you'd like to discuss this without calling anyone an 'old hag' you are welcome to contribute. Not so much narrative as vocabulary.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Cam, as you know, i was very vocal on the original article you posted when the story broke on Friday, and through most of Saturday. (Some of your respresponses to my comments since been deleted). My intention throughout was twofold: a) to encourage unbiased, substantiated, honest journalism; and b) to try to minimise the (what unfortunately turned out to be inevitable) backlash from both bikers and non-bikers.
I did, however, want to come back and thank you. It is human nature to defend your corner (in this case your written piece) but takes a lot of humility and courage to admit mistakes and apologize. I always believed that your intention when publishing the story was honest, and that you were not deliberately trying to inflame the situation. Unfortunately not everyone is rational enough to understand that there are always two sides to every story, or intelligent enough to question what they see written in print.
Thank you for providing balance to a story where actually only the two ladies will ever know the truth.
I remain astounded by some of the hateful and violent comments that were posted on social media over the past few days in response to the article, and horrified by the vigilantes that went up to Fromme on Saturday to track down and confront the elderly lady.
However, my hike along Dempsey, BP, Poweline, Dreamweaver and St Mary's on Saturday afternoon reconfirmed what i have always believed to be true. That with a little respect for fellow users on all trails on Fromme, you will find, almost without exception, a friendly and courteous bunch of outdoor lovers and enthusiasts. May this always be the case.
To those of you that dont live in the area or are unlucky enough not be a regular user of the North Shore mountains: there is no war. An isolated incident occurred and im sure i dont speak out of turn when i say that we would all like to put this behind us so that we can continue to enjoy this amazing recreational resource… young or old, hiker or biker.
Thank you again Cam.
Kerris
Reply
Gord SB B
9 years, 2 months ago
You are not the only one astounded…
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I have now published my mea culpa and the hiker's version of events.
Reply
Michael
9 years, 2 months ago
All the drama surrounding North Shore mtb is mind boggling…. it's like cowboys and Indians 150 years ago. I guess war never ends.
Reply
lumberjake
9 years, 2 months ago
I really have little sympathy for these NIMBY zealots.
I seriously believe that these saboteurs have a psychological issue(s) needing to be dealt with.
due to the area where these trails are located, we are talking about upper middle class people. Folks who have worked hard most their lives and now feel that its their time to enjoy it, which is also fair. The problem is, like most NIMBY types, is they are still living with the same expectations as they did when they moved in decades ago. Despite the obviously, massive changes in the region due to MTBing. The "North Shore" has become legendary for not only the completely innovative and brilliant trails built by hard working volunteers and the many who lobbied to allow bikes but created new bike types altogether!
While most interactions with other trail users have been good there are a small number of these folks who seem to have an inability to even try to understand anyone elses views or the fact they are just a right to use the trail. These people arent typically bad but seem to feel a huge sense of entitlement because they lived there for whatever amount or their home is worth whatever and that when they hiked 20 years back they did so with out bikers and by some miracle still expect the same as if their expectations trump others. Why do they constantly feel right? Perhaps because they no longer get out as much outside of their hike and the hike becomes a focal point in their existance vs others who worry about kids, work, making the mortgage. These few hikers all agree with each other and become further deluded. This is perhaps a bad comparison but its similar in a mild way to a cult. Now they see bikers as enemy, no matter how you ride or polite you are they treat you like an enemy! I have little doubt, as sick as it sounds, that IF someone did end up in hospital due to their "deeds" they would feel a great sense of revenge and have little empathy.
To them its war.
If they truly were innocent and believed what they were doing was right, they would know then that most people would support them but its the latter they never cared to think of. Now their names are public along with several published comments that only support the allegation this was a war to them.
The husband has come out to say his wife just wanted to slow them down. BS! If they have watched MTBers there for 10 years, they now it takes a lot to slow one down. She is trying to cause harm via an accident, which it isn't when you have narcissistic and deluded older people setting it up!
I have had confrontations with lots of people who "think" they know the rules but don't and tryi g to be polite and explain the actual rules(in this case its a local lake with single track and fire roads depending on the side) I was on the fire road and this guy had no interest in learning the difference between one and the other, whatever, I get it, you have to win because its not about what is right but your ego. However, if I saw folks doing what is clearly designed to hurt people, that is way way different. I look at this as this guy wants to hurt me and he doesn't even know me, why? So he can win some twisted war going on in his/her head? I am not going to be polite. I will be loud and threatening and these folks won't do squat because they are too cowardice to confront bikers in person, clearly. After hoping some idiot opens the door for me to protect myself by pushing me then its on and frankly, knowing what they were doing, I would hope I could restrain myself.
This last bit isn't what I am endorcing, I am just saying that may be my reaction and I know others with short fuses. These NIMBY terrorists need a direct reminder that their actions have consequences. Toying with peoples lives over your obsession is weak. Act your age or face the consequences.
I wonder how many hours of volunteer work and trail maintenance is volunteered by the other user groups compared to cyclists?
Reply
Gord SB B
9 years, 2 months ago
ummm… this is a different story, unrelated to this story, my case and point.
Reply
Gord SB B
9 years, 2 months ago
I have no reason to dispute Lee, I have met him once, not even, just seeing him in a room. I have no reason to dispute with Cam, as I have met him once a couple of years ago.
For those tuning in now, Sunday 8:40PM, this whole story has gone through an evolution during the weekend. For those following it through the weekend, Lee's comment is genuine, as I was very concerned too with this matter and how the Kangaroo Court in the Forum, Facebook, and here was, during the weekend, bouncing blind ignorant comments.
My definition of Ignorant: "Without Fact".
As you can see from Cam's recent edits and acknowledgement's, he has realized some shortsightedness in his releasing what he knew at the time. I accept his explanations, as I accept his retractions and regret- it could have been dealt with in a better manner, as all posters taking contrary positions to Cam, below, have indicated.
Let us be clear about one thing: no one here, except the direct participants in the situation, know exactly how it developed or how it went down in the trees. Quite frankly, what was said to Cam was here-say. Reporting one-sided here-say is risky, as Cam has now realized.
Just because one person knows another person, in my opinion, does not preempt due diligence. If the story was posted as a matter of safety it could have been positioned more along that line from the get go- that is my constructive criticism for Cam.
So, to close, Forum Poster's, unless you saw what happened you cannot really comment and judge on it since you are only commenting or judging on something you have interpreted to have happened based on what you have read; which was essentially here-say at the time but which now is slowly becoming more factual and balanced.
Reply
Lee Lau
9 years, 2 months ago
Cam ; tip of the hat to you for this Sunday PM addition: "I have made mistakes and learned from them. Moving forward I will proceed with more caution and not rush to publish information that is not complete."
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I appreciate that Lee. More mea culpa to come.
Reply
Lee Lau
9 years, 2 months ago
Internet lynch mob at its finest
Reply
Derek
9 years, 2 months ago
Lynch mob?? Cmon Lee. A young female mountain biker was viciously assaulted. Don't believe the victim, really? The first altercation was on Espresso and that's mountain bike primary. She told the old lady that there were riders behind. The lady flew into a rage and assaulted the rider. It's not a "lynch mob mentality" to say that such behavior is entirely unacceptable on our shared trails.
Reply
Lee Lau
9 years, 2 months ago
Cam and I many others asked people to stand down and not be judge, jury or executioner when the saboteur was arrested. This was a responsible and good thing to do.
For some inexplicable reason Cam put out a he-said; she said piece but with only one side of the events; an act that was judge, jury, executioner. It's done and it's too late to take that back. All one can do is learn from it and be glad that hopefully there were no consequences.
Very illuminating how you immediately assume that I didn't "believe the victim" (your words) when what I'm saying is that there MAY (emphasis) be a few sides to this story. It's sometimes said that mountain-bikers are a tribe. Like any tribe they defend their own no matter what. Rick, if your kind of close-mindedness and willingness to accept one account of events without even hearing the other person's version is what it takes to be part of a tribe then I'm pretty happy to not be part of .
Carry on with the lynch mob.
Reply
Crinkum
9 years, 2 months ago
When did Lee say he didn't believe the victim? I think it was more about the original story being presented in a certain way and now being changed 3 (and soon to be a 4th) times. Cam tried to break a story. He didn't have all the facts. Now he will have to deal with the consequences. You know what that's going to be? Less views. Because his credibility is now questionable.
I want to see the hikers side of this story. Then I'm done with NSMB.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
FYI Lee - my update was done at 5:00 pm. Three hours before you posted this.
Reply
Derek
9 years, 2 months ago
And Lee it seems like you have some kind of hate on for Cam and crew at NSMB.com. The defamation of Cam for his exploratory comments on ebikes at the NSMBA General meeting was one thing; now you're allowing personal animosity to color your interpretation of the assault of a young woman. Shame.
Reply
Peter Leeds
9 years, 2 months ago
Interesting that she had a retort. And knew exactly where to put it. Obviously, this is not an accident. She must of been following the stories (knowing the implications) and I doubt her "defence" is going to cut it. I think that with all that is happening lately is actually a breaking point; a turning point for bikers in that all the negativity against us is finally being shown for what it is: NIMBYism at is worst. Moreover, it needs to be followed up, and treated with a firm hand, in my opinion, to prevent further transgressions. I am tired of bikers doing all the trail work and then being frowned upon, vilified, or even worse, targets for vandalism or intentional trail sabotage. This, to me, is the hour of our group taking this and using it to our advantage. 24 yr old bikers don't get attacked with hiking poles at random. Trails don't get sabotaged without the saboteurs knowing the intended consequence. We have to, in the interm, take the high road of morality despite what you gut instinct tells you. The more info the authorities get, the better the case against them. And the example it will set so others don't get any ideas. Be better than those whom would hurt us. This is the time we can be better. And let's be.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I have written a new introduction to this piece, removed the photos, and edited it extensively. I have received the hiker's version of events and I will be publishing that later this evening.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
What a joke.
Reply
Derek
9 years, 2 months ago
What's the problem? He's updating this story with new information. Great! Maybe this event can be a catalyst for even greater understanding and empathy between the biker and hiker communities (which is already pretty fine on the Shore in my view regardless). If NSMB had an axe to grind there would be no "update" pending. Cam and group haven't been more clear throughout these recent odd events that there is no "war in the woods" and hiker/biker relations are harmonious generally. Perhaps this latest incident will afford a learning moment for either or both communities.
Reply
Debbie
9 years, 2 months ago
I just saw the news video online. Interesting how your friend's version doesn't seem to quite match up with logic (do you actually believe that old woman could do half of what you claim) or witness accounts. Your friend (yes, the sweet one who bit someone) may well have been covered in blood because she bit someone!! Now, that older lady likely has to get tested for God knows what your young friend has, as well as getting antibiotics and a tetanus shot. Who bites someone? Thank goodness the police and news outlets take more time to investigate (and document actual injuries before deciding guilt. You are simply fanning the flames and using your blog to spout your own agenda. Anyone with two bits of a brain can see this is more like a diary entry than a news piece. But hey, you got your face on camera, right???????
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
See above Debbie. More to come.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
Ghandi would never bite anyone.
How could your non violent friend bite someone Cam? LoL.
Most people are now theorizing you caused all this post incident drama to bring up your website viewship.
Any truth to that Cam?
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I don't care what you think my motivation was, theorize away, but you are taking my Gandhi comment out of context. It was in response to a post, since deleted, that suggested the younger woman should have defended herself more effectively. I replied that a more violent response shouldn't be sought nor praised. I'm glad you are enjoying yourself (LoL?) but I haven't found any of this enjoyable or funny.
Reply
Feral
9 years, 2 months ago
I, like everyone, am not privy to the "whole story" here, but in general, bites tend to be defensive in nature. As many have pointed out, the mountain biker was a fit 24 year old, while the older woman was 69 and apparently suffered from some long term physical injuries/limitations. The 24 year old would not have to resort to a bite to get the upper hand on the older woman were she the attacker. The simple fact that the older woman was bitten leads me to the conclusion that the younger mountain biker was on the defensive and probably reacted with panic by biting. Non-violent or not, fight or flight will kick in, and if you're on the ground or in a corner and can't run, a bite might be the first thing your hind-brain comes up with if someone is waving their hands in your face.
That said, I'll agree that the drama associated with this incident seems to have grown past self-sufficiency, which Cam has acknowledged above.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
Karma is a bitch Cam.
You and your 'elitist' b.s. friends deserve all of this negativity and drama in your life.
You are a fake and a phony Cam, always have been, always will be.
Karma.
Just do it now Cam, get the electric bike and go all in.
Its your destiny. LoL.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
You know nothing about me. I am certain of that.
Reply
Julie
9 years, 2 months ago
Thank you Debbie! Further to that the damage done is substantial. This hiker, who is 69 years old, was stalked and harassed by members of the mountain biking community on Saturday as she took her dogs for their daily walk as she has done for more than a decade. These mountain bikers claim they were standing up for one of their own. All this based on the biased and unsubstantiated the second hand reporting of a now admitted amateur blogger. Cam McRae you owe many apologies not only to the hiker involved but to your biker community. This whole thing is disgraceful
Reply
Hiker and mountain biker
9 years, 2 months ago
Wow. Get the lynch mob. I actually know this older woman. She has spent years volunteering in Vancouver and North Vancouver. She has two poodle-like dogs that, like their owner, wouldn't hurt a fly. She also is quite frail, with a ruined knee and torn shoulder. She is not physically capable of 95% of what your friend says she did. Also, with holding the guilty parts of the story, including your friend pushing down an old lady after biting her (and sending her to medical treatment) makes your piece look all the more misguided and aimed at inciting some sort of mob to harm the senoir.
Reply
pelmazo
9 years, 2 months ago
Metallica - Kill 'Em All [Full Album]:
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
Errr, I think you're in the wrong place. There must be a 'greatest sell outs of all time' forum somewhere.
Reply
DaveB
9 years, 2 months ago
Cam - Please stop fanning the flames of this 'faux dispute'. I see less rage & conflict on the trails among user groups than when crossing the Lions Gate Bridge in traffic. Yes the 'Trail Nazi' did a dumb thing but really, were any of us going to get hurt from her stupidity? Media coverage is raising tensions where none previously existed as this weird new conflict demonstrates.
Reply
guest
9 years, 2 months ago
"I see less rage & conflict on the trails among user groups than when crossing the Lions Gate Bridge in traffic"
Nothing but great interactions with other riders and hikers on the trails today!
Reply
guest
9 years, 2 months ago
my wife's been bitten by that black dog before!!!
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
The black dog isn't hers actually.
Reply
Carl Linnaeus
9 years, 2 months ago
We each begin in innocence.
We all become guilty.
~LEONARD F. PELTIER, Prison Writings
Reply
John
9 years, 2 months ago
I think it's important not try to draw a line between mountain bikers and hikers, in terms of trail rights and stereotypes of character. It's really quite simple: don't be an entitled asshole. Respect other people's right to use a public trail, be aware of your surroundings and blind corners, and say 'thanks' regularly. Also, don't use strava on mixed use trails. If you want to race….race.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
Is it OK to use Strava and not race? Is it possible that someone not using Strava might be going fast in its absence?
Not being an entitled asshole is good advice…for life.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Did anyone see Global News this evening?
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
It just did. They did a long interview and cut everything except that. This is the first time I've been so deceived by a media outlet.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
I just watched what I presume was on the news here:
Please confirm if you can.
To me it doesn't come off as far from balanced, knowing little as I do about the whole thing. Cam, is it primarily the beginning of the peice and the edit of your interview that makes you feel deceived? I felt that by ending with a clearly balanced statement from the guy who was used to describe the injury to the hiker at the beginning was a good way to end it. No?
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
In retrospect it's probably good they cut it the way they did actually.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
UPDATE: I have added the contents of an email from the alleged assailant to the end of the article above.
Reply
Woody
9 years, 2 months ago
the 24 y.o. needs to stop being a victim and kick some fvcking ass. You're allowed to defend yourself, even in Canada!
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Lots of people are saying things like this. I wonder if you would have criticized Gandhi for being non-violent? Some people abhor violence and do whatever they can to avoid it. I personally don't see this as a character flaw.
Reply
Woody
9 years, 2 months ago
We all love Ghandi. There is a balance that every individual must find for themselves. Nature handles these situations with an immediacy that we should be open to revisiting when faced with circumstances like this. We can only be pushed so far before pushing back.
Reply
theweev
9 years, 2 months ago
You weren't there. She was properly shaken and in shock. The flight portion of the fight or flight mechanism was fully engaged.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
What? I think you have an imaginary friend.
Reply
Woody
9 years, 2 months ago
Maybe this can help summarize…
Reply
Woody
9 years, 2 months ago
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
Just as I went to post, I saw your replies to my question of "What?" were deleted. For those interested (most likely just me when I wake up tomorrow) Woody posted a couple of clips from the film Team America in response to my question. The best I can do to communicate Woody's answer to anyone reading this now is say that the clips did effectively capture a real distillate of the film, for those who are familiar. Given that you so effectively highlighted the shortcomings of my question, I thought it worth posting the clarification to my previous comment below:
Well, I suppose a vague question deserves a vague answer. Touche.
Why does the 24 y.o. 'need' to stop being a victim? You misspelled the word 'fucking.' Who is the 'we' that all love Ghandi? Off the top of your head, how did he die? Really though, what I was most particularly interested in was who exactly this 'nature' is, that you mention?
Reply
Woody
9 years, 2 months ago
I'm sorry the young girl here is traumatized. If she was taught how to defend herself, she probably wouldn't be traumatized by a stick-wielding elderly woman. The old hag is a bully because she knows she can get away with it. You deal with bullies by standing up to them.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
That is much clearer on you initial comment, thanks. I don't think bully captures it, although the term is something of a catch all these days. I'm still interested in this 'nature' you mentioned in your second comment.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I just returned from a hike on Pennzoil and Dempsey up to Expresso. Everyone I encountered, hikers and riders, were friendly and respectful. And the people I talked to, including a group from Seattle that I met, reported similar experiences. They were amazed at how friendly everyone was actually. Hopefully this is the anomaly we all think it is and we'll be able to return to our peaceful and harmonious trail experiences.
Reply
Bouvier
9 years, 2 months ago
you failed to include in your report that the young woman bit the elderly woman? Sorry, but your account just lost all credibility. Shame on you for posting pictures of the hiker while refusing to even disclose the identity of the woman for whom you are building a story on half-truths. What the heck is your motivation in not simply being honest and forthcoming. It's called disclosure. Let the readers decide based on full information not your personal relationship/agenda.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Perhaps you should read my report Bouvier before you go spouting off about my credibility. You know, the article. It's up there. You'll have to scroll though. I think you can do it. The woman spoke to me on the condition of anonymity. Would you have agreed to that and then revealed her name regardless? Maybe that's your style.
Reply
Bouvier
9 years, 2 months ago
you absolutely should not have agreed to speak on the condition of anonymity. I realize (from your lack of knowledge about when to agree to grant a source anonymity if nothing else) that you are not a journalist, but the situations in which anonymity is granted in reporting are few, far between, and thoroughly considered by a news organization. Transparency breeds accountability; ethics matter. You've done yourself a disservice by your approach to the story - the anonymous source, the withheld critical information…. I too am a mountain biker, trail runner, hiker so value safety on the trails as much as anyone, but I object to your effort to build hysteria by presenting a story as so one sided when, apparently, it isn't.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
You are entitled to your opinion, but my intent had nothing to do with building hysteria. I was concerned for safety, and that was what guided my actions.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
I am a regular reader here, with no anti-mountain bike agenda, and I must agree with Bouvier. I make that qualification because everyone else who has lent support to this comment is anonymous (and therefore could be discarded as being biased).
I doubt that Cam was intending to build hysteria, but must acknowledge some bias in stating that. I expect his intentions were true, but the actions have fallen short.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
That is admirable Cam.
Reply
Doug Nielsen
9 years, 2 months ago
Bouvier… out of curiosity… are you a journalist? Just trying to understand where you are coming from here. Truly know alot about journalism or just b.s.
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
A solid criticism and a solid reponse to the criticism.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
Perhaps you should actually write a REAL report before you go spouting off by posting it up on your international mountain bike culture website . Idiot.
Many people have said you've been slipping in the reality dept. these past few years. Here is proof. Get some professional help for your delusions Cam.
You have no style Cam, unless you include goon style, as something worth mentioning..
Reply
Dietmar
9 years, 2 months ago
This:
Reply
Janet
9 years, 2 months ago
Has anyone considered that she is in the beginnings of dementia, Alzheimers or mental illness? My father was a compassionate, respectful and reasonable man until he descended into illness in his early 60s. At that point he was sometimes irrational and acted out in a verbally aggressive manner, often in cases where he felt he had been wronged. It was incredibly hard on him when he realized what he had done, and also on his family.
I don't condone the dog walker's actions in any way but would hope that this community could reserve judgement until the whole story is told, and show empathy towards an obviously troubled elderly woman instead of advocating violence towards her (I'm looking at you munched55).
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Having now communicated with the older woman, it is my belief that she is not suffering from any cognitive impairment.
Reply
Peter Leeds
9 years, 2 months ago
And I encounter her every day I ride Fromme. She is lucid, coherent and aware of her surroundings (and the implications thereof). This is not some "bat-shit crazy old woman". Her actions clearly had some cognitive reasoning behind them. Saddest part too: I have never been afraid of her (no reason to) and she has been very friendly and talkative to me. I have had many conversations with her with no incident. But striking someone with a hiking pole, in a legal sense, is assault with a weapon. Make no mistake. She is in damage control now, and will do anything to mitigate further action. I hope in the end she gets the book thrown at her. I know my perception of her is permanently changed. Sad how it all goes.
Reply
munched55
9 years, 2 months ago
This is the woman. She is already due in provincial court for vandalizing bike trails. Here is a story on her on the Province where she whines that she's afraid to go outdoors.
Reply
munched55
9 years, 2 months ago
Reply
munched55
9 years, 2 months ago
The attacker needs to be humbled by a serious beating.
Reply
Feral
9 years, 2 months ago
You're an idiot, and you apparently don't even know what the story is as Mrs. Kraal is not the woman who carried out the attacks in this article. Stop trolling.
Reply
munched55
9 years, 2 months ago
Stevie Wonder could see they're the same woman.
Reply
munched55
9 years ago
Bullshit. She's exactly that woman.
Reply
incendiary
9 years, 2 months ago
No she doesn't. She needs to be stopped yes, but not by a vigilante. Please take your comments elsewhere
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
By the way if you see me on Fromme today, I'll be the one with the big smile wishing you a "great ride" or "happy hike"!
Reply
Tbone63
9 years, 2 months ago
I have been on both sides. Mtn biker and hiker. Now I hike more and I find mtn bikers are inconsiderate and ride past people
And there dogs WAY to fast. Back when I was blazing those trails we would always slow or stop for hikers. Younger more attitude in today's bikers. Really ? She bit her ? Too much. should read more like young inconsiderate mtn biker attacks elderly hiker. There is always 3 sides to every story.
Reply
theweev
9 years, 2 months ago
From the one side of the story we have been presented, it appears that in the 1st incident the mountain bike did exactly what you claim to have done. She slowed down, was considerate and took time to look out for the well being of other trail users. How does that jibe with your comments about her being a "young,inconsiderate mountain biker ATTACKS elderly hiker"?
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
In my opinion your sense of responsibility to the "victim" is misguided, as a "media outlet" surely your responsibility is to present facts, or at least to provide all the available information. this article was clearly written as sympathetic to the "victim", and in no way balanced in view or opinion. Your lack of responsibility has exploded a bomb on Facebook and provided a platform for hate speech and most likely additional confrontation on Fromme for either or both the rider and hiker. You have also enabled those not from the area to gain inaccurate impressions of what i normally find to be the case… a hugely valuable recreational resource that can by enjoyed by all. I hope seeing the horrific comments by bikers and non-bikers on Facebook in respinse to your article, that this will encourage you to think before you leap in future.
Reply
tashi
9 years, 2 months ago
I guess you haven't noticed Trailharmony, but the comments sections of news articles are full of angry, idiotic, and sometimes violent comments. The news articles they're attached to are no less valuable as a result. The CBC isn't responsible for the bonkers nonsense that their commenters post; NSMB.com isn't either. If you want both sides, and know the people involved, I'd say it's up to you to find out the facts and present an account of the events. Cam has presented "all the available information" - if the other side wants it's story told I'm sure it will tell it but so far it hasn't. The article is sympathetic to the "victim" (quotation marks yours) as she deserves our sympathy as a result of her victimhood.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
The original article indeed failed to report all the available facts, the update (and admission to actually knowing about the biting) was only delivered a day later…by that time the damage was done and the thousands that read it were all under the impression that there was a crazed elderly lady roaming the mountain seeking out vulnerable young female bikers with the intention of doing harm. If you take the time to read my other comments on here you will see that I am in no way defending either of the two individuals involved - only they know exactly what happened. I certainly don't condone any violent behavior. What I am concerned about is a lack of perspective, and knowing that there are unfortunately less rational people out there that will throw hateful speech into social media, that this incident will get blown out of proportion and will in turn cause either a witch hunt or bad feeling between the various users of these trails.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
The update doesn't change anything about the facts at hand. Based on the information I have it just means the young woman tried to defend herself. I'm still under the impression that a crazed elderly lady is roaming the mountain. I was told by two people today that she attempted to strike them with her poles. One of them got it on video. As I mentioned, the young woman wasn't comfortable talking about the bite and asked me not to mention it. Would you have betrayed a confidential informant? There isn't much integrity in that is there? Something I haven't mentioned yet is that I've had an encounter with this woman as well. A group of us had just finished riding Expresso and we encountered a group of women with their dogs. They weren't on the trail and our group and theirs was stopped. Several of us said hello to them and one of them, matching the description and photos, began screaming at us about not owning the mountain and asking us what right we have telling her where to hike. And this was in response to saying hello - nothing more. As in the first incident, her friends did their best to shut her up, but she just kept screaming at us. Eventually we just rode away and she kept on freaking out at us; swearing, screaming and yelling. I think there is ample evidence that this individual is un-hinged and potentially dangerous. Obviously evidence is not the same as proof, but I would recommend everyone give her a wide berth.
Reply
Lee Lau
9 years, 2 months ago
Perhaps the best example (but by no means the only example) of Internet lynch mob mentality
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
You have made this point many times now but it's clear you are out of your depth here TH. I have been more responsible in my reporting of these events than the major new outlets. We can only report on the information we have. Your horse is still dead, but you keep beating.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Receiving constructive feedback clearly not your strong point eh?! But at the very least you were forced into divulging the hidden information 🙂
I'm done here now, all I want to say is that I wish peace and joy to all those who love Fromme.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Let me know when it gets constructive TH. I'll be all ears.
Reply
Henry Chinaski
9 years, 2 months ago
"Your lack of responsibility has exploded a bomb on Facebook and provided a platform for hate speech and most likely additional confrontation on Fromme for either or both the rider and hiker"
That’s as inflammatory as some of the facebook reaction. You’re criticizing the response to this article, but your 15+ posts in this forumn clearly indicate that you’re one of the most impassioned people consuming this news. Stay tuned for a factual “unbiased” account from the Province…
Reply
tw
9 years, 2 months ago
I have never had a negative encounter on that mountain ever with anyone.
just a suggestion: if you want a picture use GoPro. Getting out your phone is asking for trouble. Not condoning this old battle axes behaviour (probably off her meds). Stopping and taking out the phone in a situation like this is unnecessarily provocative.
I think NSMB should focus on the trail nazi issue and the rest of us should get back to doing our thing.
If someone does see her recommend a rabies shot.
….and if anyone is concerned about being attacked by an aging old cougar, bring some bear spray. Otherwise leave em be.
Reply
Dana Bourgeois
9 years, 2 months ago
I think Nathan has the right idea though. Presseing charges is a lot of work, but proving your innocent is just as difficult, and when someone has two incidents and called the cops once already, my experience tells me this will be worse the next time around if nothing is done. I do think it will backfire int he media in round three, as no one will let her attack them again.
Reply
Dana Bourgeois
9 years, 2 months ago
Need water sprayers, you know, like for big cats:)
Reply
stephen
9 years, 2 months ago
I find this comment silly: "After events of this week, the respectful relationship between hikers and mountain bikers seems to have hit a breaking point."
I encounter hikers pretty much every time I ride mtb and NEVER have issues. I actually have encountered more issues with inconsiderate mtbers who think they own the trail. So to make this particular instance somehow representative of a breaking point between hikers and mtbers is sending the wrong message.
Anyhow, I am glad the woman rider is okay. If it were me I would press charges because A) assault is illegal and B) I wouldn't want it to continue and have someone else (including the violent lady) get hurt over something like this.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I have made that same point here and in all the mainstream media interviews I have done. In fact I made it above. But it seems extremely likely that the events of this week are related to the revelations about the hiker accused of vandalism. To have the first report of a hiker attacking a mountain biker occur at the same time as the evidence about the Kraals longterm campaign to vandalize trails seems like more than a coincidence. I consider my words carefully and I believe I have access to more of this information than anyone - and I stand by my contention. Call it silly if you must.
Reply
Rob Gretchen
9 years, 2 months ago
Wow, really appalled by some of the FB responses to this issue on Fromme. Who are you people to react so angrily to this action, which is essentially unsubstantiated at this point? Let cooler heads prevail and don't make this into a war of words.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
My point exactly… putting UNSUBSTANTIATED and one sided stories out there has done precisely what i said it would do 10 hours ago. The Facebook comments in response to this article are shameful.
Reply
Rob Gretchen
9 years, 2 months ago
Just to be clear I am a passionate mountain biker and outdoor lover and a follower of NSMB.com. I just hate to see conflicts of this nature in the community when they can be avoided. I am hoping both sides of the story can be told and that justice prevails if it is warranted.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Agreed! I also am passionate about everyone having access to these trails, young or old, hiker or biker, as it provides such an enriching recreation experience. What i hate to see are sensationalist headlines in Facebook and one sided journalism that provokes such an outburst of hateful speach.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
TH - you don't seem to understand journalism. The press speaks to those involved in events and presents their side of the story. If I and when I am able to present the other side of the story I will. But I will add that, based my knowledge of the person involved, I am as certain as I could be about anything that she is presenting everything to me as honestly as she can. Talking to the source is what substantiated means. It's not corroborated because there is no one else I can speak to. It seems you may be out of your depth here. And regarding the comments, have a look below any CBC or Globe and Mail post on FB. Try a Bill Cosby-related article. The comments are even worse. That is, sadly, the nature of Facebook. At the same time we have been moderating hateful and unproductive comments. If you think I'm the enemy you are barking up the wrong tree. I have been told by two people that the older woman attempted to strike two others with her poles this morning. The RCMP was called once again. That's three times this week.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Please don't presume to know what I do or do not understand! Your article was incomplete, and the ommission of known facts is bias.
Reply
walleater
9 years, 2 months ago
Jeez, isn't it a nice day outside? Some of us are stuck at work! How about leaving the keyboard finally and enjoy the outside world 🙂
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Don't worry walleater I spent a good two hours hiking Dempsey, BP, PowerLine and Dreamweaver today! It was glorious and all encounters were friendly and courteous 🙂
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I thought you were done here TH? I can presume to know what you don't understand all I want - media is clearly on that list. In any situation where there is an unidentified assailant and an alleged victim, the media talks to the only person they have access to; the victim. This is as substantiated as any similar situation. Is this still hard for you to understand? I have clearly identified my reporting as based on the younger woman's narrative. I have been clear that I was asked to omit a significant part of the story. It wouldn't have been my choice, but she told me her story on that condition. This morning I was able to convince her otherwise. But please, keep beating the horse. You also suggested the older woman went to police. I learned today that this was untrue. Why did you say that? Do you have a relationship with this woman you aren't being honest about? It's starting to seem that way. Why wouldn't she go to police if, as you seem to suggest, she was attacked by a woman trying to take her photo? And why would someone take a photo of someone they are about to attack? You'd think she would have gotten a better photo if that was the case. Please help me get the other side of the story from your… however she is related to you.
Reply
Kevin
9 years, 2 months ago
I think if you are going to accuse someone of a crime you need to follow it up to the conclusion … stand behind your words.
Reply
Peter Leeds
9 years, 2 months ago
I know who she is, not by name. I run into her almost every time I ride Fromme. She has always been nice to me, but then again, I am a very fit male. I thought she was nice. I will look into this. Violence is unacceptable, and if I meet her today, I am going to confront her about it and see her reaction. If she assaults me, I will be sure to take my phone and provide evidence.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Thats right Peter, more confrontation is exactly what we need (said sarcastically)…
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
TH - thanks for the heads up on the sarcasm. (also sarcastic!). I agree with you though, the last thing we need is more conflict. This woman lashed out with her poles again today. It's on camera this time as well apparently. DO NOT ENGAGE HER. Nothing good can come of this.
Reply
Derek
9 years, 2 months ago
What are the details of today's attack, Cam?
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I don't have all the details yet Rick. I will update if I get a clear picture of what happened.
Reply
James Williams
9 years, 2 months ago
Watch out for that attack poodle.
Reply
it's a fish
9 years, 2 months ago
A spot of peanut butter will make that bitch docile
Reply
Peter Leeds
9 years, 2 months ago
I encountered her today, just as I suspected. Again, she was polite and friendly, but I have been seeing her for years. I am shocked to see this other side of her, but I am not surprised. Believe me, confrontation is not what I want and I believe in being a steward for the positive aspects of biking, but I think after this any confrontation will be minimal, at best.
This story is not over yet. More will come of it. Interestingly, I ran into many non-bikers on Fromme today and not one was nasty, mean or bitter. Every one was nice and in fact, every one was puzzled how and why Mrs Kraal did what she did since all I met realize that without biking support they would have no trails to run on or walk.
Reply
asdf
9 years, 2 months ago
My take is that this is simply 2 individuals who got in a conflict, not an act war between 2 user groups. Lets keep this contained and treat it like an isolated incident. As said,this is not the norm.
If I see her on the trail, I will do as always which is slow right down and say hi and thank you. If attacked, ride away, and report it. Do not engage. Surely 60 year old, 110lb ladies are not physical threats that most could not ride away from.
Be as nice as possible. That is the best way to resolve these.
Reply
Merwinn
9 years, 2 months ago
Exactly.
Reply
Banks
9 years, 2 months ago
This is really sad. With the recent events I understand the article and it is good to keep the community informed of any issues in everyone's backyard. North Van really needs to get involved here and create an open dialogue for the tax payers and users of the area to let out their concerns. It is really heating up out there and if something isn't done to calm all the users of Fromme down it could really create a terrible culture and stigma around the area. We need to be active in not letting this get so far to have it taken away from everyone. I am a biker ( not in your area) and I do feel that the NSMB biking community is an organized bunch, for good reason, they had to be years ago to create advocacy for the biking community. These ladies are old school and maybe the frustration is that they don't feel they have a voice (as strong) in the community. Obviously not everyone will be happy with community plans and designations in the park but it is important that the biking community doesn't roll over these ladies as it will affect that user group in years to come and how they approach the park and bikers. Again, we always talk about one bad seed in our riding groups that causes confrontation going down the hills too fast and they do need to be called out but don't let it destroy an area. Move forward and keep working at building a kickass community as you have obviously done. I think it is impressive as to how far the mountain biking community has come to be called the bully. I am sure 20 years ago your group had to fight to even have your concerns and issues heard. It is impressive but let's not let it get to our head. I think it was great to call out the actions of the bad seed but don't become Monica Craver on the flip side, stay positive!
Reply
walleater
9 years, 2 months ago
" It is really heating up out there and if something isn't done to calm all the users of Fromme down it could really create a terrible culture and stigma around the area." - It is calm. Just one or two weirdos, same as there are everywhere on the planet. My only other thoughts are that maybe the 'Mountain Bike Primary' signs could be more descriptive. Who has the right of way for instance? And if hikers want more of their own trails, they should form the NSHA and lobby for them and build them. Although as a hiker too, there's shit loads of trails on Fromme that you can walk on and never see anyone. This is all such a non-issue for 99.9% of people out there.
Reply
Banks
9 years, 2 months ago
Oh I totally agree, out on the trails it is probably a one or two off. My concern comes from how social media can really get away from everyone and become it's own animal in the public eye. For a person not in the area, these stories look really wild and they are getting a lot of attention.
Reply
nicolas españa
9 years, 2 months ago
if she doesnt understand, i say chuchu madafaka
Reply
Henry Chinaski
9 years, 2 months ago
I was just headed out the door for a Fromme ride. I appreciate this information being posted. Such a shame.
Reply
Andrew
9 years, 2 months ago
You people need to be careful with the road you are headed down..I feel like you are hyping this type of stuff up way more than it needs to be….seriously, an elderly lady overtook an active 24year old?? I will say you will most likely end up riding with a clanging cow bell on your handlebars like we do here…it sucks but it's better than not riding…I would let the first incident settle down before you rile everyone up again…
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I'm not sure what your point is Andrew. Are you saying we should manipulate the flow of information to suit some larger agenda? We are a media outlet, not a political organization. This was reported when the information was received. There have been similar reports where a woman failed to confront an adult male rider but aggressively confronted two young boys who were following him. Should we have waited for a third attack before reporting on this? the ages of those involved is of little relevance to the seriousness of this situation.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
But you did manipulate the story and left out facts , and manipulated the flow of information to suit YOUR agenda.
Cam, stick to slapping people wrists on your forum, and quit pretending to be a journalist.
You've blowing it many times with issues like this, this time you have blown it real bad.
Reply
Peter Leeds
9 years, 2 months ago
I know this woman, Andrew. She always hikes in a group, with poles (weapons, if you will) and you can understand that she would feel threatened after recent events. Most bikers don't expect to be hit and are not ready for confrontation. Rest assured, as I posted earlier, I know whom she is, not by name, and encounter her almost every day I ride. Maybe today will be different (I am preparing to ride as I write this). I am taking my phone for obvious reasons.
Reply
it's a fish
9 years, 2 months ago
The obvious reason is to listen to Pandora, I assume.
Reply
Doug Nielsen
9 years, 2 months ago
Hahaha! ^^^^ that was great.
Reply
Doug Nielsen
9 years, 2 months ago
watch it. You'll be glad you did.
Reply
Bruccio
9 years, 2 months ago
there's no reasoning with certain kind of elderly people. in their mind, their age gives them the right to be always right and to deserve something i don't really know. full stop. happened to me on Mt.Grappa near the dolomites in Italy…going warp speed down a public access trail, no one around. at a certain point, metal barbwire at chest height strung along the track. jettisoned my bike, landed on the mud. lucky me. i reported everything to the Forestale (wood police of italy), comes out that an old farmer was "disturbed" by the sound of bikes going down that trail. they fined him a good amount of k€.
Reply
Colin
9 years, 2 months ago
I have to say, I ride with a varied group of people (via an internet group) and after the arrest of the saboteur it felt like everyone was riding a little more politely. When approaching hikers they would slow down a little more, or pull over a bit further, or greet a little friendlier. As if they knew the spot light was on them. It appears the spot light is getting even brighter than we anticipated?
For me it seems to be a problem with perception / assumption of lack of control.
A hiker will spot an approaching biker, they will perceive that the biker is on a collision course (CBDR for the BSG fans out there) they assume the biker is out of control & the hiker will step aside (while trying to gather up their dogs/children) for safety. This is a natural reaction to avoid being hit.
The trouble is, 9 times out of 10, the mountain biker notices the hiker right away & is in full control. But they know that if they stop immediately & pull off to the side of the trail, they will have to stand there for a minute while the hiker walks up and passes them before they can proceed.
So instead the mountain biker (knowing he is in control) decides to continue riding the trail a bit further until he gets closer to the hiker before pulling off to the side. This way hiker/biker passing will take place sooner & everyone will carry on their way. But the hiker sees the rider continuing towards them and instinctively steps off the trail.
At that point, the biker gets close… but the hiker has already stepped off the trail, so the biker figures "well they've already stopped, I might as well continue through so that everyone can move on".
The result -and I've seen it over and over again myself on hiker primary trails- is that bikers intend to yield, but by the time they get there, the hikers have already yielded. So the bikers figure it's just quicker to continue through.
I am not a hiker, but I can imagine this constant feeling of being pushed aside on all the trails would be mighty frustrating. In this regard, I think mountain bikers need to start practicing yielding. Not just the intention of yielding ("the road to hell is paved with good intentions" as my grandmother used to say).
The NSMBA spent years demonstrating trail maintenance responsibility. Now maybe it is time for us to spend years demonstrating exaggerated politeness.
I say exaggerate everything. Slowdown sooner when you approach a hiker. Stop and put a foot down. Pull further off to the side than you want to. If the hiker has already stopped and stepped aside, stop and let them pass anyway. Show them that we are actually able to control where we stop our bikes!
-hps
Reply
Kaz Yamamura
9 years, 2 months ago
Well said, hps.
Reply
Carl Linnaeus
9 years, 2 months ago
This is a good (better) way. Unfortunately the Baden Powel trail is multi-use. It's just not a family-friendly trail with trail-runners + bikers + dog walkers. Time to let Strava times on BP go the way of the dodo. And I've never met and unfriendly hiker/biker although I am both.
But honest, it is unnerving to be hiking up, at the bottom of the big wood roll on BP and see a biker coming down from the top! It's one of those "Oh, Shit" moments. The DNV needs to step it up and allow a twinned trail to separate the traffic in those places - and I mean separate it by more than just a few feet.
That being said, there is no excuse for violent behaviour. Every park space has users that quarrel or 'interfere' with each others enjoyment sometimes. It's just the reality of shared space. Let's all take a deep breath.
Reply
Peter Leeds
9 years, 2 months ago
Most of the time I yield; not out of respect (since it seems only bikers care enough to do any maintenance, I being one of them) but it gives me a good time for a quick break. Perhaps we should see it that way, a blessing in disguise. We get a rest, we look courteous, and in the end we win. Kill them with kindness, I was taught.
Reply
Matt
9 years, 2 months ago
This is really important, it's very easy to scare the bejeezus out of a hiker while in full control and with a zero percent chance of hitting them. Even before they see us, we're making scary sounds and then we appear just to blast out of the bush, gunning straight for the uninformed observer's dog/kids/head. There is no good solution for this issue though, stopping early on a trail with sight lines that are any less than spectacular is too late. Hikers will never understand that a cyclist is in control in that situation because it's far too big a perceived risk that comes along far too quickly.
Reply
Spoogekin
9 years, 2 months ago
This is fucking insane…..
Reply
Skier
9 years, 2 months ago
Just FYI, there's no such thing as an alleged victim "pressing charges" in Canada. We Canadians watch so many American crime dramas that phrase has become part of our lexicon. We cannot press charges in Canada. What we can do is cooperate with the police, who can then forward the information to Crown Council. Only Crown Council can proceed with charges, if they believe there is reasonable grounds. If an alleged victim is prepared to cooperate with Crown Councl / Police, that may sway CC in their decision to prosecute / lay charges against a suspect.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
The victim told me she was asked by RCMP "if she wanted to press charges."
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
It's a cooperative process and there are a couple of different ways to have charges laid; through the police and then the Crown Counsel or you can charge a person yourself through a Justice of the Peace.
In any case, the wording here doesn't matter, a police report and an indication that the victim wants charges laid is. This may require follow up from the victim and perhaps even another avenue, such as through a JP.
Reply
SB
9 years, 2 months ago
Such a sad story to hear of. In Scotland we have a legal outdoor access code passed by parliament. . It gives walkers, cycles and equestrians equal rights to the countryside. It also outlines how to behave! As if intelligent people should need to be told how to be civil. So it can help protect victims of abuse.
Luckily we don't need it and walkers respect MTB users on designated trails. Good luck on Fromme.
Reply
callum
9 years, 2 months ago
Indeed, and when a local dog walker laid traps on mtb paths in Bridge of Allan 2012 we caught him with deer stalker cameras and the local police took it really seriously and we haven't had trouble again. The outdoor access laws seem to work really well -even local multi millionaire land owners were forced to comply by not blocking paths etc.
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
Cam McRae, if your friend would like action to be taken by the RCMP, she should press charges of assault and intimidation. Otherwise, the RCMP have no responsibility to pursue action. If this is exactly how it happened, there is no reason why she shouldn't press charges, for herself and other trail users.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
I advised her to do so. - and I'm hopeful she will. She is shocked and badly traumatized at this point. The police took twenty minutes to arrive and then showed no interest in pursuing the individual, despite being given information about her destination. The police also failed to encourage her to press charges. If this was a random attack by a man I have little doubt the police would have handled things very differently.
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
Yeah, I understand the shock and trauma that can follow an event, whether there are resulting injuries or not. I don't think that recommending charges is something that police do. I've been in such a situation where I've been assaulted, asking the police for advice on pressing charges and the wouldn't help me with info because they said they're not my lawyer. One, apparently has to sometimes already know how to pursue charges in order to do so. It's upsetting that they didn't attempt to pursue the lady who allegedly assaulted her.
It can be quite frustrating and dejecting, especially following such an event. It can, however, be done, especially with some support. There is no doubt that the lady will be identified. Mt Fromme relatively is small, with a small community.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
This story is clearly one sided as you dont have access to both sides of what happened. Posting such obviously one sided articles of this nature is irresponsible and inflammatory. If you are genuinely looking for harmony on the trails for all users you are going about it in the wrong way.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Put me in touch with the alleged attacker and I'd be happy to speak to her. A phone number, email address or home address will do. Not posting this story would have been incredibly irresponsible. My wife and my kids ride and hike in this area, as do many of my friends. The news of these events needed to get out. Anyone who fails to make that connection is not the voice of reason.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Some of the aggressive comments made here by your readers does not encourage disclosure of such information. I , a mother, also use the trails with young children and would always advocate courteous behaviour by all. I would certainly never feel endangered by your alleged "attacker". Both she and her dogs are polite and good natured whenever i have encountered her, either hiking or biking.
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
Give Cam an email address or phone number. As you inferred, it's important to present a balanced representation of the events that transpired. I think that everyone would like to hear her side of the story.
I don't see any aggressive comments another than recommendations to pursue the proper legal channels. No one wants to hurt this lady and the biking and hiking community reflects that.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
There was an aggressive comment regarding poisoning her dogs. (that has since been deleted) The police have her details, that is all that is necessary. If she wishes to respond she can do so herself.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
When have I ever advocated anything but courtesy? Show me the link.
And how do you explain your friend's actions? Which of the assaults do you think was acceptable? I have been yelled at by her as well - for saying hello. We weren't even on the same trail. My friend's 14-year old son was intimidated and traumatized by a woman matching this description in October. He felt frightened and threatened by her.
Your absence of fear says little. Klan members, as an example, have nothing to fear from their hooded brethren.
If, as you suggest, your friend has nothing to hide, please direct her to the North Vancouver RCMP detachment. I'm sure they would be pleased to hear her side of the story.
Reply
DrewM
9 years, 2 months ago
That was an incredibly tasteless attempt at humour that elicited a very strong, negative, reaction from this community, but fair enough.
I truly hope that you have suggested to her to speak with a professional counselor before she hurts someone else. It is impossible to imagine how any version of the events leading up to either assault resulted in that level of rage. I'm sure she must be dealing with some other distress and needs a better outlet.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
At what point did i accuse you of not advocating courtesy?! I was just pointing out that i believe we can and should all be able to enjoy the trails, regardless of how we do it…hiking or biking! I dont wish to see any user of the trails excluded as it provides enriching recreation for everyone! Also, you have assumed she is my "friend"! I only know her from meeting her on the trails over the last three years or so, i certainly dont have her contact details. I am not trying to say that she did or didn't do what this article has accused her of, but am clearly pointing out that one sided and incomplete information will inflame the situation as it doesn't reflect a balanced view.
Stand down!
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
The lady biker BIT the hiker… to such an extent that it required a visit to the hospital for some serious medical attention…maybe you would like to suggest that the biker also seeks professional help as that level of aggression also has the potential to hurt someone else in the future.
This is my point…when only one side of a story is reported there is no balanced view!
Reply
guest
9 years, 2 months ago
I would suggest if anyone, mountain biker or otherwise, is going around biting people without provocation they probably need some help.
Are you suggesting, "the other side of the story", that it was anything but self defense?
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
It sounds like we are on the same page. And I agree that we should all be able to get along, and that, as I mentioned has been my experience almost exclusively. But I also have no reason to doubt the rider's side of the story. She did not approach the older woman; she simply followed the instructions she was given by police and attempted to photograph the woman who had speared her with a pole and screamed at her on the trail.
Like any other media outlet, I can only report on information I have access to. I made efforts to contact the police about these events but they were unable to provide any information. And I stand by my contention that not reporting on these events would have been irresponsible.
Reply
Dietmar
9 years, 2 months ago
Don't waste your valuable time sparring with the likes of Cam McRae and others, here, Trailharmony. You never know where the truth ends and the lies begin on the NSMB.com.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
I am only suggesting that there are two sides to every story, but funny how either the biker failed to mention the biting when giving her side of the story or the reporter failed to disclose it.
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
Yes, that was one comment by one person, not "aggressive comments made here by your readers." As you can clearly see, it was rightfully deleted and everyone denounced the comments to let it be known that north shore communities don't accept such language or action. So, your characterization was clearly deceptive or intentionally ignorant.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
We do both stand together on the open access to all on these beautiful mountains Cam! And i also have almost exclusively experienced nothing but harmony by all users.
Did the biker not mention the biting to you? Or did you not report it? If it was left unmentioned to you, you may wish to establish how if she was indeed held down by a woman 45 years older than her she was able to take a chunk out of her hand and cause such damage that it required a visit to A&E.
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
How do you know that she was bitten? If that is the case, I hope that the hiker is alright as well. I look forward to hearing her side of the story story, which I'm sure she will be anxious to tell, if she is a "polite and good natured" woman, as you say. Otherwise, we'll only have one account in which to judge the situation.
Reply
incendiary
9 years, 2 months ago
Please have the hiker come forward and let us know what happened then. To be bit in that manner, I could assume the the biker was acting in self defense. At that point she is protecting herself. We're a cycling community so when we catch wind of a fellow rider possibly being attacked we want to know. Now since it's very recent news I hope that we can continue to follow up and find out what has happened. I'm on edge reading about this because we have made huge grounds in the interaction between cyclists and hikers. We don't need things to go backwards.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Are you calling me a liar? It sounds like it. Please back that up. Most of what I have written is online so you can copy and paste or simply put up the link. I'm all ears, you with the anonymous user name.
I can only report on information I have. As I mentioned I would be happy to hear the other woman's side of the story, but the idea that any of this was made up is ludicrous. And I am certainly aware that attackers can be hurt by a victim's self-defence. If there is more information about either side of this that I can get access to I will certainly report on it.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Pretty quiet there Terrafirma. Bring on your list of lies.
Reply
Banjo40
9 years, 2 months ago
I would say based on what I have read that this batshit crazy 60 year old probably bit herself to establish a defense in the event of criminal charges being brought
Reply
Steve
9 years, 2 months ago
Typical Moni… er Terrafirma. Lots of trash talk and nothing to back it up.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Although i am encouraged to see that the community on here is by and large acting without malice; i have jyst spent less than a minute reading the many comments attached to this article's posting on Facebook and am HORRIFIED by all of the aggressive and abusive comments written there, and all directed at an old lady. This is exactly what i was talking about when i said that posting a biased and incomplete story would be inflammatory. Well done Cam…I think you have just created a second witch-hunt. I was thrilled when i heard that the lady leaving logs, rocks and debris had been caught (whenever i used those trails i would always clear away the stuff left there) but i do remember that feelings were strong, and a lady (only guilty of writing negative stuff about bikers on her Facebook page) was hunted down, named and shamed, only for it to not be her that was in fact guilty. Lets please put this type of sensationalist and deliberately emotive writing to bed and try to establish the facts. Like others on here, i too am concerned that things will escalate.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
Although i am encouraged to see that the community on here is by and large acting without malice; i have jyst spent less than a minute reading the many comments attached to this article's posting on Facebook and am HORRIFIED by all of the aggressive and abusive comments written there, and all directed at an old lady. This is exactly what i was talking about when i said that posting a biased and incomplete story would be inflammatory. Well done Cam…I think you have just created a second witch-hunt. I was thrilled when i heard that the lady leaving logs, rocks and debris had been caught (whenever i used those trails i would always clear away the stuff left there) but i do remember that feelings were strong, and a lady (only guilty of writing negative stuff about bikers on her Facebook page) was hunted down, named and shamed, only for it to not be her that was in fact guilty. Lets please put this type of sensationalist and deliberately emotive writing to bed and try to establish the facts. Like others on here, i too am concerned that things will escalate.
Reply
Feral
9 years, 2 months ago
Why would a young woman who is likely capable of moving much more quickly than an older woman attack with a bite? It's much more plausible that the young woman was on the defensive, probably panicking due to the violence and suddenness of the attack, which triggered a defensive bite.
Reply
DrewM
9 years, 2 months ago
I just saw the comments as well… so much for theory that people will act with civility when you remove their anonymity. Sad.
It doesn't change the fact that people, especially those taking their kids out riding, need to be aware that there is an aggressively unfriendly user targeting weaker/smaller riders. That may be an unfair representation, or only 1/2 the story, but it is better for all users to be aware than to pretend it didn't happen.
Obviously, at some level, this started with a misunderstanding: yesterday, a week ago, a year ago, sometime in the 90's, etc. If I was trail god for a day I would resolve all these misunderstandings by putting both users in a nice room, with a couple of comfy chairs, and a pot of coffee because everyone out enjoying the forest has a hell of a lot in common with everyone else out enjoying the forest.
Sadly, in this case, I would guess that the Mounties will end up taking notes on a she-said//she-said basis and everyone will probably walk away angry and disappointed. It doesn't have to be like that though as obviously there are people here who know both actors and once the noise dies down a bit maybe you can help them take the steps to reconcile on common ground.
Reply
scriptysandra
9 years, 2 months ago
she implied, you inferred.
What I don't understand about all this is, if this is a designated bike trail why are hikers even on it?? I live in Lynn Valley. If I am on a walking trail and a biker is using it I expect them to yield to me. If it's a biking trail, you won't find me anywhere near it. That is their designated trail and I'd be stupid to be on it.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
If all those reading this were responsible and rational thinkers then a public service announcement would be great! Like ive said i am in no way condoning violent and aggressive behaviour by anyone, and i am most certainly not taking sides, but i unfortunately know that there are individuals who will just take the article at face value and assume there is a crazy and violent old lady on the mountain who is targeting and attacking (unprovoked) young female riders. I know for a fact that there is more to this story than has been articulated by either the "victim" or the reporter.
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
My point exactly - "based on what youve read". What you have read is an unsubstantiated and one sided piece of journalism, written in such a way that you cannot fail to believe that there is a crazy and violent old lady running around attacking young female bikers unprovoked!
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Facebook comments have been filtered to remove the idiots.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
LIAR? Nah.
Scumbag? Sure.
Manipulator? You bet.
N.I.M.B.Y. ? Bingo.
Reply
Kaz Yamamura
9 years, 2 months ago
It's very easy to call people scumbags when one is hidden behind a wall of internet anonymity
Reply
oldghost
9 years, 2 months ago
I've called him a scumbag to his face a few times in the last 5 years.
He knows what i think of him.
Reply
AlanB
9 years, 2 months ago
So sad to see hate like this in the woods.
The vast majority of interactions I have with hikers is positive and friendly. I guess mtn bikers aren't the only group that has a few jerks.
Reply
DrewM
9 years, 2 months ago
Absolutely. In well over a decade of riding, hiking, and maintenance I can count the number of negative interactions I've had on one hand.
Its funny(?), but I always tell people that - other than being scowled at by the Mistress of Mountain View Park no matter how politely I say hello - Fromme is the friendliest mountain! You generally look forward to crossing other peoples' paths because 99% of the time you get a smile and a hello.
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
It's beautiful place, full of happy people enjoying the outdoors as far as I've seen in the past ten years.
Reply
FrommeRoamer
9 years, 2 months ago
I hate to say it but I feel like all the media attention over the last few weeks is only fuelling the fire and creating hostility between user groups where it didn't otherwise exist (or at least at such a elevated level). It's likely that enthusiasts from both sides who enjoy Fromme are following this story closely and it makes me nervous to think another encounter like this could happen. I for one will continue to slow down, stop and say good morning/ good afternoon as usual.
Reply
Nathan D
9 years, 2 months ago
"Her apparent propensity for violence suggests that she is unstable and dangerous." This is reason enough in itself to pursue pressing charges against the woman. The fact that (irrespective of the dogs' ability to carry out the instructed attack on the rider) the hiker was of the mindset to have her dogs then 'attack' the assaulted & downed rider paints a crystal clear picture of the hiker's venomous ill will towards mtbers as well as that of her unhinged mental state. 2 attacks by the same woman in a very short space of time? I hate to think what might happen to the next person/woman/youth who crosses her path. Both for the riders' sake & that of the attacker's- in all seriousness, if that mad lady crosses the wrong person or ramps her aggressive behaviour &, as horrible as it sounds at face value, well, she's just as likely to end up injured or a missing person. Worse still, if a rider pushed her away in the interest of staving off an attack etc, then you can be guaranteed that she will come after the rider/s with the full-force of the law in tow, "Rider Assaults Elderly Woman on Mt Fromme" would make a great headline in the papers. Doesn't matter what the facts are in that situation of a rider pleading self-defense, because there are NO impartial witnesses in that situation in the eyes of a judge, so the reality is that the rider WILL get fisted by the law & in turn public opinion turns against the riders & next thing you know Fromme's again being targeted to be shut down to riders. Worse still such an outcome would further compromises the tenuous relationship riders already have with land managers, stakeholders & other user groups. Common sense absolutely suggests that this attacker needs to have charges pressed against her so she is on public & judicial record as being a violent offender. Cover your arses, I mean it.
Reply
Ken Simpson
9 years, 2 months ago
Fyi unlike in the US, there is no concept of pressing charges in Canada. The police investigate, and if they feel it is warranted, they will ask the Crown to lay charges.
Reply
James Williams
9 years, 2 months ago
Indeed, and if the crown is disinterested, no charges will be laid. Witness Rahim Jaffer, caught with a baggie of cocaine while driving drunk. No charges. Tzvi Erez, running a 17 million dollar ponzi scheme, no charges.
Reply
Bdubs
9 years, 2 months ago
Regarding assaults, unless the victim wants to press charges, it's technically considered a consensual fight. Police cannot lay charges without approval of the victim. Where you're correct is in situations like domestic violence.
Reply
James Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
Not true. An assault is an offense against society under Canadian law. If the police get involved the victim doesn't have a choice of pressing charges, that is up to the crown prosecutor. This is contrary to US law where victims get intimidated by the perpetrator and decline pressing charges. The question of perusing by Canadian police is one of gathering evidence and in this case the perpetrators identification was tenuous at best. Once the id is known and injuries can be verified, the crown will take over.
Reply
Doug Nielsen
9 years, 2 months ago
Seems the Canadians are somewhat confused on this point…
Reply
TEAM ROBOT
9 years, 2 months ago
Fun fact: that "pressing charges" thing you mentioned about the US, the one where victims can choose whether or not to press charges, is a TV myth invented to create drama. There is no such law on the books in America. Charges are pressed or not pressed at the sole discretion of the prosecuting attorney.
Reply
Nathan D
9 years, 2 months ago
Based on what was articulated in the article, coupled with the most recent NSMB update of the rider indeed being left bloodied & injured in the assault which was instigated (once again, based on the article) by the hiker, then I would have certainly thought there'd be more than sufficient cause for someone from Canadian police to investigate given the clear presence of 'wounding with intent'; 'causing grievous bodily harm with intent'; 'unlawful wounding'; 'malicious wounding' or 'inflicting grievous bodily harm' as outlined under English/Commonwealth Law. The reality is that the hiker carried out an action that had clear & specific intent- to hurt the rider. I'd have thought it particularly poignant for this to be followed up by authorities given the recent charges brought against the woman responsible for the string of sabotages designed to clearly hurt unsuspecting riders legally using the network (though I doubt the charged woman acted alone- read into that how you will).
Reply
Carl Linnaeus
9 years, 2 months ago
We each begin in innocence.
We all become guilty.
~LEONARD F. PELTIER, Prison Writings
Sometimes it is those whose case is weak who make the most clamour.
~Piers Anthony
Reply
welshgnome
9 years, 2 months ago
What this article fails to mention is that the lady biker bit this elderly women so deeply that it required a hospital visit.
I walk and ride these hills every day, and of late when I am hiking with my dog, I feel often looked down on as if I am trespassing. I ALWAYS move off the trail to let bikers through regardless of right of way.
When I am on my bike, I ALWAYS slow down or stop for walkers.
We all need to step back a bit here and not be to hasty to throw accusations and post stories on line, before all of the facts have been checked.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
You seem to know a lot about this situation. Do you know the identity of the attacker? What sort of self defence do you think is appropriate when a woman is on top of you striking you, screaming at her three dogs to attack you, do you think is appropriate?
Reply
welshgnome
9 years, 2 months ago
I heard the screems whilst on the trails this morning and ran down to see if I could help.
I do know the lady, but only to say ho to each morning our paths cross. I habe seen jer both on and off my bike and has always been plesent ro me. I helpt clean the wound at the bottom of the trail and dress it as best I could. I didn't witness anything but felt I should wait until the police arrived to give my detail bit to also make sure it didn't spiral out of control as there was a fair gathering.
I got a call from my daughters school to say she was sick so after collecting her from school I went to the police station.
Reply
welshgnome
9 years, 2 months ago
Like you, I didn't see what happened. But I never heard anyone yelling attack either. And how is it possible to bote someone while you are on the ground being beaten by walking poles?
Reply
theweev
9 years, 2 months ago
There was no need to fear things going out of control. I was part of the group(4) of bikers who were present at the trailhead. The woman rider was in fear and wished to be separated from the other womAn in question. At no time was anything going to "spiral". Like you we did not see the event just the aftermath. We were waiting for the police,like you to ensure that the matter was properly resolved.
Reply
walleater
9 years, 2 months ago
Quite easily if that persons hand is over your mouth (allegedly).
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
The walking pole was the first incident, on Tuesday, which was also reported to the police.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
Give us a name Cam.
Who is your 'friend' that bite an old lady?
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
Where did you get the information that the biker bit the hiker? Was it in defending herself?
I've been hiking and biking on Fromme for years, with and without my dog. I've been treated with nothing but respect by both hikers and bikers. What actions of by others make you feel looked down on?
Reply
walleater
9 years, 2 months ago
I've never had an issue whether hiking or biking either (other than lycra clad 29er riders can look a bit miserable).
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
lol I'm sure you can endure the facial expressions and lycra.
Reply
welshgnome
9 years, 2 months ago
I was on the mountain today and witnessed the aftermath.
I get comments and disgruntled looks. This mountain is part of the reason I moved here from the uk. I love it here,but what has happened over the last few weeks has saddened me greatly
Reply
Mike X
9 years, 2 months ago
Thanks for the info.
What ind of comments? Not to diminish your experience, but perhaps you look disgruntled and they are mirroring you…? I've got nothing but smiles and hellos, whether on bike or hiking up the mountain, with or without my dog in the past tens years. I'm not saying that your experience didn't happen, just that I have a lot of experience on the mountain and have never encountered it, so it seems out of character from the atmosphere on the mountain.
Reply
it's a fish
9 years, 2 months ago
I bit a hiker once. Horrible taste
Reply
Brenda Kelly
9 years, 2 months ago
I call bullshit to your comment, OR, that old bitch would be the one with the story and charges pending. Nice try though. The BC lower mainland has been having trouble with a few old bitties, who think they own whatever land they are standing on. Time to get granny a new attitude.
Reply
welshgnome
9 years, 2 months ago
I was there
Reply
Trailharmony
9 years, 2 months ago
The hiker had to seek medical attention before she was able to go into the police station to report the incident, but report it she did.
Reply
Robert
9 years, 2 months ago
When I first started riding on Mt. Seymour, a lot of the appeal was how friendly and cordial walkers, hikers, joggers, and bikers were. It felt like being in a small town again, and it continues to feel that way. In 20 years I've never seen, experienced, or read of this type of behavior on Mt. Seymour.
Now I'm wondering why these incidents are occurring on Mt. Fromme, and why older women seem to be instigators in confrontations as well as overly vocal in their disdain.
Reply
people_chill
9 years, 2 months ago
I wouldn't rule out that the old lady bit herself to have damage to report. You say you were there, but did you really see everything? Crazy people will do ANYTHING to gain an advantage.
Reply
theweev
9 years, 2 months ago
100% not true.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
There are lots of things that can't be ruled out. You writing this implies that this is likely. Do you have anything to substantiate that? If not, your comment lack merit.
Reply
Sean Fairbairn
9 years, 2 months ago
When the proper legal channels are enacted justice does get served.
Reply
David Simons
9 years, 2 months ago
Jeez, is this why you have issues with other trail users, you take everything so seriously? No more NSMB for me.
Reply
Kaz Yamamura
9 years, 2 months ago
Are you saying stalking and poisoning dogs isn't going to create issues? I hardly see this topic as one to joke around on.
Reply
jdt
9 years, 2 months ago
Understandable if it's just a joke David. Perhaps you might just want to delete your post. We hardly need to be taking shots at each other right now.
Reply
Cam McRae
9 years, 2 months ago
Yours is an attitude we can do without David. Suggesting poisoning three innocent dogs is not comedy. Buh-bye.
Reply
old ghost
9 years, 2 months ago
Actually, its YOUR attitude that the mountain bike community could do without Cam.
YOUR attitude Cam.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
What about his attitude in particular? In my view an attitude is a bit too complex to make such a sweeping statement and have it be meaningful.
Reply
David Simons
9 years, 2 months ago
Find out where she lives, stick a note on her door one night saying " we know where you live", poison her dogs the next night, the unleash hell on her!
Reply
jdt
9 years, 2 months ago
David, we really don't need anyone like you in our community. Your comments have no place here. If you have something intelligent and constructive to offer about how to actually deal with criminal activity and maintain peace in the woods, please speak up. If not, crawl back under your drawbridge. Your comment makes humans look bad.
Reply
Mtnbikerslovedogstoo
9 years, 2 months ago
Why on earth would you punish her dogs for her actions? You are just as bad, if not worse dude and need to remove your post - you should be ashamed of yourself.
Reply
Pete Roggeman
9 years, 2 months ago
That's really not how we want to deal with this, David. As a community we need to take the high road and let it be known that mountain bikers are responsible members of the community that want to help resolve conflict, not lead to its escalation.
Reply
Matt
9 years, 2 months ago
I can only hope that what you said is a bad joke.
Reply
jdt
9 years, 2 months ago
If anything, she should be charged with assault, and her dogs should be taken from her, and put in a home where they will not be used as weapons. Change the gender and skin colour of the perpetrator, and the breed of the dog, and you can guarantee that police action would be swift, and that the calls for justice would be loud. Why is is that our biased society is so reluctant to get over themselves and treat all people as equal?
Reply
James Williams
9 years, 2 months ago
Because people commit crimes at different rates. Orthodox Jews and Chinese women do not commit murder and theft at the same rates as black males, vietnamese males or el salvadorean males. Period.
Reply
jdt
9 years, 2 months ago
Yes James. My question was rhetorical. Of course, none of the classifications that you mention apply here. This is more of an upper-middle class older sub- group being privileged over a wide class of diverse citizens defined only by their choice of recreational activity. It makes the lack of police action all the more troubling, and paints a poor picture of bias in the enforcement of the law in our locale. Nonetheless, I see your point and the substance therein.
Reply
Nat Brown
9 years, 2 months ago
Period? Are those the only 5 groups that 'people' belong to? Can you think of any other dimensions along which you can think to draw lines? How would those stats work out? Actually, how do the stats work out for what you mention? Specifically?
Why am I feeling so drawn to the '?' key?
Reply
Rivs
9 years, 2 months ago
You are an mouth breathing ,knuckle dragging idiot . And defiantly do not represent the feelings of people in our community.
Reply
Please log in to leave a comment.