Does The North Shore Suck?
Dear Uncle Dave:
Does the North Shore suck?
Sincerely,
Does the North Shore Suck
Dear Dunce:
It sure does. At times. Like everything. There’s many a day that I don’t want to ride janky trails that beat the shit out of my body. But that misses the point.
The closest parallel I can think of is the Seattle music scene. Way back when, a bunch of bored kids that lived in the rain had nothing better to do so they started fooling around in their back yard. For years, nobody noticed. And then one day, other people realized that what they were doing was kind of amazing. Within a relatively short period of time things blew up. The outside world noticed, and an entire industry shifted to catch up with what was happening. In their haste to capture and exploit, people didn’t try to learn what the scene was about or why it was there in the first place; they just took the most recognizable elements and twisted it into something they could peddle to the masses. Some basked in the glory. Some shunned it. And some who had nothing to do with it made massive fortunes selling pathetic knock offs to people who didn’t know any better.
But a magical thing happened as well. The masses were exposed to something that they’d never dreamed of. A light was turned on and people took this crazy thing they only saw in magazines, TV and videos and adapted it to their own experiences. Some of them created something just as real and just as special, but different. There was a hint of what inspired them in their new creation, but just a hint. And pretty soon what was new was great, and what had inspired was left behind. People forgot about why they were so excited in the first place. Backlash ensued.
The people who started the revolution got older. Some headed back to their rainy backyards. Some took inspiration from the new creations that they had inspired, and created even newer things. Most just kept doing what they were doing, just with a much smaller spotlight. But the bones remained. For good or bad, you are what you are and you can’t really change your roots.
So yes. Elements of the Shore really suck. Many of the trails are showing their age. We’d all love it if we had a few wide open rippers with flowing turns that lasted for hours and caused rainbows and IPA’s to shoot out our bellybuttons. But we don’t. We made what we made and it is what it is. You’re welcome to ride it and experience it and enjoy it or condemn it. We don’t really care. Good or bad, we hope that you return home, take what you learned, and make something better. And then maybe we can learn from that too.
Sorry,
Uncle Dave
Dunce takes home two pair of Dissent Genuflex Socks (a $62 value)
Once you’ve ridden in Dissent socks you may not want to wear anything else.
Dave’s getting all poetic on us. Are you in need of his wisdom? Send it…
Do you think the North Shore trails suck?
Comments
Peter Leeds
8 years, 10 months ago
I don't think the NS sucks, but the direction it is going in definitely does. I am old school, I will get that out of the way. My personal favourite trails are all the gnarly ones. Upper Crippler, Grannies, Bookwus, Ladies…. you get the point. But it seems to me that the number riding said trails is getting fewer and the ones I mentioned are getting ridden less (which is good or bad, depending on your point of view). The new school BS of smooth groomed trails with all flow and no bump is going to, in my opinion, take us in a direction that I see as the antithesis of what North Shore riding is all about. These new school trails teach no skills, how to handle roots in the wet, drops, undulating terrain…. all the things I strive to look for. And once these skills are lost, the trails that are predominantly as such (gnarly) get avoided, ridden less, and thus, no work. But the next step, decommission, is a real possibility if there is few riders. I can guarantee the first trail to be decommissioned on Fromme will be Pink Starfish. So few go down it that it is hard to justify why it should be still viable (despite the fact it is one of my favourites, especially the rockface in the last 1/3 of the trail). Bikes are getting lighter, more techno….and yet the price goes nothing but up. I could understand this if the frames were all hand built, but most are not. And it seems the newer riders just lap it up. I recall why freeride frames were beefy; my last one (a 2006 Foes Fly) lasted me 7 years before giving up the ghost, and I am not a rough rider. I wonder if modern bikes, given a steady diet of old school meat, would last 7 years. I'll stick to the old ways myself, dying out with them if that is how it turns out, but that is what I prefer, and I am all for riding of any sort, so long as the past is not forgotten and left for those of us whom still call it a North Shore standard.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
Not everyone can ride trails like Expresso and have a good time. I used to be firmly in that category. I could ride janky trails like Bookwus, Crippler, Starfish etc. but back then I would have sucked at trails like Bobsled and Expresso (and I probably still suck actually) and I would have avoided them like the plague.
I still enjoy riding the tech trails but I can now really have a great time on smoother faster trails. I had to learn to have fun on them and that wasn't easy at all. It also requires an open mind. Bikes certainly make a difference and a Knolly with a Monster T is not going to be fun on Expresso. At least I couldn't have much fun on a bike like that on Expresso. And I had a great time on Starfish the other day on my daily rider that also runs great on new school trails.
The great thing about today's Shore is that we have some choice. I can ride Bookwus and Expresso in the same lap - and have a great time on both. The other thing to consider is that there are now some trails that allow riders to get a taste of riding without getting discouraged immediately. There are trails I can take my kids on, or other less-experienced riders, and they can get the bug. And Expresso, as an example, has sections that are challenging and technical to show that side of the Shore. If you are really looking to groom riders then we need variety and we also need to be able to allow riders to progress by giving them access points.
We were maintaining Expresso today and riders of all stripes passed us. Fast and experienced riders and absolute beginners as well. And both were clearly having a great time. In fact I know that many of the most skilled riders on the Shore can have a great time on Expresso - and these are riders who could clean Pink Starfish without breaking a sweat.
What I find strange is all the people talking about there not being any challenge left. Challenging trails are still plentiful. If you can't find any you aren't looking. At the same time many of those were not sustainable, nor could they be rebuilt. Expresso is a perfect example of that. The old line is a trench and reworking it would have required thousands of hours.
Like you I haven't been pleased about all the work, but I realize that there is an arrogance to thinking all trails should be made and maintained in an image that pleases me. Some of the recent work on Krinkum, as you mentioned, is a good example. There was a fun section that allowed you to carry some speed and even ride a couple of (god forbid!) drops. It didn't require a lot of maintenance and it dealt with water well. But, for whatever reason, the maintainer (Peter?) decided that this area would be better served by several tight switchbacks. I actually love switchbacks and I can ride them well generally because I'm an old bastard, but I don't find these any fun at all. They are (IMHO) too tight for even skilled riders to ride quickly. But there you have it. It's not always going to be perfect for me, but I'm happy that someone with skill and dedication is working on the trail. Will I ride it less? I think I will, because I have the luxury to choose something else.
It's pretty easy to be an armchair grouch and complain about the state of the trails, but I find it hard to imagine that you'd like to go back to five years ago when every single trail on the Shore was in need of serious repair. Few seem to remember the days when one trail at a time would get one day of maintenance and then that trail would get hammered afterwards because everything else was such shit. Things were going downhill in all the wrong ways. And now we have momentum. Of course it will never be the same, but nothing ever is.
The North Shore is dead. Long Live the North Shore.
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Peter Leeds
8 years, 10 months ago
I agree with you to a point, but the fact is this: consensus rules. Period. If 90% of riders are going down nothing but smooth trails and all the old trails get little or no use guess what: it is easier to endorse the smooth ones and thus decommission or close the harder ones. Fact. The resources go where the population is (and this is not just limited to biking). I note as well a direct correlation to the popularity of Fromme and the increase of groomed runs (which is no surprise, but also an interesting political move to garner more interest in the mountain such that advocacy is more relevant). I am not saying do nothing. My point is (and seems continually lost on all whom view it) is BALANCE. Moreover, and I see this more in how the changes are made, is we are now at a point where the powers that be (if you would like to call them that) are going to choose the obvious examples of maintainable trails and ban the rest in order to force the focus of trail work. In my book, all I ask is the older trails be left alone, maintained only as needed and NOT groomed to placate the masses. Moreover, you fail to see the evolution of biking in how one goes from doing roads, to groomed trails, to more "tough" challenges. I don't see this progression as it is. I rode Fromme on Sunday, like always, and MOST of the riders did the same thing: Seventh, Espresso and then whatever. Perhaps C+C, but you can bet most bypassed Grannies and Upper Crippler. I note as well Upper Oilcan does not see as much traffic as it use to (there use to be groups at the entrance but not anymore). I have seen in the aforementioned 5 years you quote a definitive change on Fromme that is distinctly away from technical riding to the smooth, groomed, non technical riding that we see now. And what of the next 10 years? What will be expected by riders then? A shuttle up Fromme? No work for the downhill? Purely paved trails since dirt becomes slippery as it dries? Seventh is already essentially paved, but what of the slippery slope this entails? And please don't bring my bike style into this. I ride a Knolly Podium with a Monster T (which is no slouch to pedal up but I do) not because it makes things easy. I have this setup since the bike will take a beating and last, and from a financial standpoint, makes sense. My fork is 10 years old and has saved my ass many times. It does NOT make the tech trails easier since you still need body english skills and subtle nuance, all of which the new flowy trails do not teach. And please do not insult my intelligence about being an armchair observer on this. I spent $600 on my chainsaw to do my part (not one cent of which is reimbursed by NSMBA or anyone ) or the RISK of using one. It took 2.5 hours to remove the spire that fell on Grannies and that was a dangerous buck up. The one on Lower Crippler was easier, but was pure happenstance. I personally love Pile of Rocks and removed the fall at the end. Tree removal is dangerous work if not done properly, of which anyone whom uses a chainsaw on a daily basis does like I can tell you. I would like to point out that planting ferns on Lower Skull is nice, and I get the soil erosion part, but IIRC from BC Parks removing ferns FOR ANY REASON is an offence. Keep that in mind. With eyes on us it would take little to sway opinion any way. But pointedly, the focus of my posts is not that things are changing and how they are changing, but it seems to me the long term implications of the said change are being given no consideration, and there is a reason why and how things went the way they did (on Fromme in particular). So long as the past and a good portion of that past is preserved, fine. But if it is going to be all paved, smooth or removed, then that is not what I want to see.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
Expresso is no fun with a Monster T. That was part of my point. But it's a blast on everything from a hardtail to an AM bike.
If balance is what you are after I'd say we are getting closer now. The trails you mention do not seem to be in jeopardy. Nobody is screaming for Crippler to be buffed, nor Grannies. But the Shore was dying the way it was before. No younger people were getting into the sport, let alone beginners. Now they have options and if they get the bug they can progress to the harder trails. As it was before that wasn't possible. It could have remained a private playground for the few but, like the original Expresso Line, without people to maintain those lines and clear fallen wood they would be at greater risk for decommissioning. And there wouldn't have been many voices in opposition - certainly not as many as there are now.
I sympathize with your thoughts and, as I mentioned above, I used to have the same perspective as you. But now that my horizons have broadened and I can enjoy the higher speed lines with some flow as well, the Shore is better than ever. I didn't think that would ever happen but now that I have a skill set I didn't possess earlier every ride is more fun than it has ever been. And the trails you mention are still some of my favourites as well.
I agree with you that finding a balance will be challenging. At least with Expresso there were parallel lines as options. Now that Kirkford has been re- routed there will no longer be a challenging line on that side of the hill. At the same time I know a lot of experienced riders who love what is becoming of it.
The North Shore was slowly becoming extinct before TAP. And while not everyone will agree with the direction some trails have taken, something had to be done.
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snowpig
7 years, 6 months ago
Expresso is no fun on any bike now if you have been riding for more than a week. You could save yourself the climb up and go to your local bmx track for the same experience. TAP has helped the Shore in a way but mainly for the green and blue trail riders. Now that the original mtn bike community has gotten older and is not riding the same terrain they used to as well as trying to get their wife and kids into it they are seeking "easier" trails. So unfortunately the advanced trails are getting no love or having every root, rock and wood feature ripped out of them. This really goes back to the "Is the Shore getting dumbed down argument?" and I am on the side of 100% it is and I don't like it. I still love the flow and jumps but RIP Circus, Jerry Rig, GMG, Groovula, Air Supply, Hangman, Never Never Land, Lola's etc!
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Big D
8 years, 10 months ago
If you can't enjoy yourself on the north shore just f*k off. This is mecca.
I met guys riding street in London back in the early 00's (the real London, not that shihole in Ontario) and they were in awe of the shore. Several of those guys moved to Van. I was taking one of them up Fromme (he had maps of Frome, Cypress, and Seymour on the walls in his flat in London) and we happened to meet Dangerous Dan at the top of Exspresso. We chatted for a bit and after Dan took off he looked at me and said "holy shit that was Dangerous Dan!". This was a guy in his mid 30's from Europe. If you can't appreciate the impact that the North Shore has had on the world of mountain biking, and if you don't find it challenging enough, or flowy enough… you are missing out on some serious magic.
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John Canfield
8 years, 10 months ago
I'll take North Shore gnar over a downhill pump track every day of the week. That said, 0mph corners have to die.
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TheSpangler
8 years, 10 months ago
I live close to the Shore and ride it a lot the trails are fun, but a lot of them are old and need some love. I also do not enjoy the Roman style armour plating on such trails like 7th and Pipeline. The newer trails coming out of Squamish and Whistler are such fun sustainable trails to ride, it would be nice to get some revitalizations in the Shore area.
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kain0m
8 years, 10 months ago
TBH, I used to think that the shore is this awesome place where the riding is great and the trails are awesome. After going there in 2013, I can honestly say I've been to much, much better places. To me, it is a similar thing as with Riva - famous riding area, but the riding is better elsewhere.
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qduffy
8 years, 10 months ago
I'm not trying to discount your opinion at all, just wondering what you prefer and why?
Basically everything I've ridden is within 160km of the North Shore, so my sample size isn't large. I'd say more often than not I don't feel like making the hour drive to Squamish or to the Fraser Valley over the trails up on the North Shore - but that could just be laziness or familiarity.
I'm going to Bend, Oregon this summer for some riding and maybe that'll broaden my horizons. 🙂
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Richard Thornhill
8 years, 10 months ago
try Hood river Oregon on the way, the trails around there are the best small bike stuff I've ridden anywhere with a LOT of flow, the North shore trails I was on the week after are a different style of trail and demand a lot more skill to ride quickly. Do they need to change yes, but so does every trail on the planet.
The Access and trail network right there is amazing. keep it up And give me a reason to return to the shore for the riding.
I've never seen a trail that's ever "Finished" there's always something you can tweak and improve.
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kain0m
8 years, 10 months ago
To me, it looked like a playground for a very selected bunch. Basically, most of the trails I've ridden aren't enjoyable on the first ride, something I seek for in a good trail area. The best trails to me are those that anyone, from pro to intermediate, can enjoy. The trails I've seen were obscure (I got turned around more than once), working against the terrain, and had serious maintenance issues.
To be fair, I've only been there for a few days, and there may be better trails out there, but one thing was obvious: the north shore bike trails got more exposure (i.e. traffic) than for their own good.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
Great comments Richard. I second Hood River as well. Awesome trails there. Based on my experience it has the edge on Bend.
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Merwinn
8 years, 10 months ago
Comparatively, Bend trails are not very technical. Bring your XC/Trail bike or hardtail. An AM bike is overkill. Yes, there are Enduro races there, but the majority of trails are pedally, flowy and pretty smooth. Don't get me wrong, it's still a great place to ride.
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qduffy
8 years, 10 months ago
Seems like a good destination for next year. Bend has a bunch of other stuff (family kinda things) that make it appealing so the riding is important, but secondary. And it looks a little easier, which'll be good for the wife and kids.
In any case, thanks for the info!
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qduffy
8 years, 10 months ago
Fair enough.
I've taken a few friends riding for their first time recently. I keep telling them they'll probably hate their first few rides, then they'll likely not like their next few rides, but they'll start loving their next few rides after that. Then the money starts flowing out.
It's a very challenging area to ride. When I moved here 17 years ago from Calgary, I broke both my bike and my will, and it was many years before I worked my way back to riding on the North Shore. But it's also way better now than it was a decade and a half ago.
But now I'm addicted.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
Don't forget all the craft breweries! You can't spit without hitting one.
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qduffy
8 years, 10 months ago
Ew?
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
You might need a better guide. I've ridden Riva and it doesn't hold a candle to the Shore. In fact I don't think anyone thinks the trails in Riva are even good. If you know where you're going we have some of the best trails in the world. Just ask Wade Simmons - who has ridden a few other places - and he'll tell you the same thing.
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kain0m
8 years, 10 months ago
May be true. But then again, I think that "best trail" is just a largely subjective topic. Maybe I prefer European trails because I grew up riding them.
Still, a lot of the more popular shore trails are in appalling state, with broken bridges, poor marking and tons "unofficial" side routes… Which may be an issue of trails suffering from more traffic than they can handle - and too much riding in the wet.
Oh, and Riva wasn't meant as an example of a good riding area - in my opinion it's severely overrated, yet thousands of people go there and think of it as Mecca.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
A lot has changed in two years. kainOm. I guess you mean a lot were appalling rather than are? I don't think you'd call much appalling if you were to come for a visit this year. Largely thanks to Mark Wood's Trail Adoption Program (and the very hard work he and others put in personally), the trails are in better condition than ever. I even rode an un-adopted trail yesterday that was closed until recently - and it was a pleasant surprise. Pink Starfish! Half way down things got a little dodgy but considering almost nobody rides it anymore, I was excited to find out how well it rides. Skinnies and all.
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Gord SB B
8 years, 10 months ago
Change happens. It simply does. And if we do not change with it… it sucks. And it does not matter if you are a hiker, biker, town dweller, city dweller, festival goer… $hit just changes. And it can suck if we dwell for the past. The past is gone. Those moments are gone. That is why they are special in the moment. Stop and pause more 'cus it is about to change.
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Bavaria 2.0
8 years, 10 months ago
Sounds like you read Robot Charlie's review of your trails. Don't be so sensitive. The Shore trails are a cultural and riding style phenomena and destination for world travelers. What has been accomplished on The Shore in terms of access and riding style is unparalleled. Keep your heads up, Northerners. The Robot has nothing but double track gravel roads to ride in his hometown.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
Who?
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Merwinn
8 years, 10 months ago
WTH is "Robot Charlie"?
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Bavaria 2.0
8 years, 10 months ago
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Merwinn
8 years, 10 months ago
Of course…
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Nat Brown
8 years, 10 months ago
Interesting analogy and I totally agree WRT bastardisation and bandwagon jumping. I'd say the Seattle music scene wasn't really any more distinctive than what was going on in many (most?) cities in the westernised world, but it's not like the mainstream media has a clue about a culture that runs that deep. I wonder if the same could be said for The Shore? I think it probably is more unique (than the Seattle analogy) but perhaps not to the extent that it's been popularised. There sure is a concentration of internet media in this neck of the woods…
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Dirk
8 years, 10 months ago
This is a fair point, but I think the analogy still stands. Of course other people were doing similar/better things with bicycles/music in other flung places. The specifics of what they were doing almost doesn't matter. The change in the way that people looked at things is what really mattered.
Johnny from Milwaukee may have had a band that blew Nirvana out of the water, but they probably didn't cause a kid in Calgary to visit the import section of his record store.
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Nat Brown
8 years, 10 months ago
Nice comment and I think the analogy still stands also. I was just being a bit of a wanker pointing out aspects that I think fall short, but analogies are rarely perfect.
I think the specifics do matter though, as that is ultimately what brings people to a new perspective. What I think was unique about the situation with the Seattle scene was that some bands of legitimate artistic merit (relatively more original, less derivative) were thrust directly into the mainstream spotlight, rather than being filtered through popular bands that pursued an artistic tangent started by a band that inspired them. (Inspired by a band, inspired by a band etc.) The end result is the popularisation of an artistic movement that is based upon specifics features, whether substantial, big or small.
And I disagree about the Nirvana (or Seattle band X) causing more folks to visit the import section than other bands. I imagine less so, much much less so, but this is obviously just opinions kicking around here.
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Mark Obsniuk
8 years, 10 months ago
I have built and maintained many a trails. I helped complete the Saw Blade on Burke and tried in vain to maintain the trail till the tools were stollen. Flagged Massage Therapy with Sean from Crank'n Carven. Maintained trails throughout the Fraser Valley, Manning park and beyond. Countless miles of Chilcotins trails, spent a weekend chain sawing out the blowdowns to link the Shulaps traverse.
So I have some familiarity with trails from a building and maintenance stand point. To me "shore style" trails means poor line choices and building techniques. Many trails combine both issues. Some more recent trails have terrible line choices that no matter how well they are built the ground simply won't support the traffic. Espresso and Forever After trail are prime examples of line choice issues. I've talked to many people about these two trails and the disappointment in the trails and deterioration is not just my own. Good examples are Asian Adonis where the line choice allows the terrain to help guide the rider and allow a natural speed scrubbing vs the turn at the bottom of a fall line section straight into a turn. My favorite lower mainland riding loop is in Port Moody. The descent on Eagle Bluff to Academy then over to Strong Road, Starz and exit to Inlet drive is a wonderful mix of features, flow and technical XC.
My complaint here is that many of the shore trails can still have the feel without falling apart due to poor line choices. Mission has some really nice trails that are challenging and well built with good sustainable line choices. I avoid many shore trails due to the feeling of guilt of riding a trail that simply can't sustain the riding. In section that are breaking up I slow down and ride very
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Lee Lau
8 years, 10 months ago
Thanks for the compliment on Asian Adonis. We'll let Ewan Flowmaster Fafard know. Sharon and I are continually pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to maintain AA
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Mark Obsniuk
8 years, 10 months ago
I'm curious about 7th secret. How much work goes into keeping it so bullet proof? Or at least appears that way. It seems to stay quite consistent month after month.
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Lee Lau
8 years, 10 months ago
Old fashioned hard work by Dean Reid in the past with Peter Morin. Now mostly Peter Morin. It gets constant work though.
Nothing on Fromme gets the traffic of Bobsled or Expresso. Seventh pales in comparison. Those two trails are going to consequently need constant work understandably
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
What is your issue with the line choice of Expresso? It is the busiest trail on the Shore by quite a wide margin, but I have to say that despite that it's held up pretty well. And a lot of us think it's got pretty good flow. Admittedly I'm biased because of our involvement in the trail but I'm still interested in your points.
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Mark Obsniuk
8 years, 10 months ago
It is something best demonstrated in person.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
Demonstrated? Are you serious? You can probably find Digger (who laid out the line) up there most days so you can demonstrate it to him.
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Mark Obsniuk
8 years, 10 months ago
Sorry I thought it was a sincere question. You said your interested in my thoughts on this but obviously not. By demonstrate I meant to point out exactly what trail sections depict the things I'm referring to. Its way to hard to write that in words.
It doesn't matter what any of us think. The trail votes with how it handles the traffic. If sections turn to crap or hold up that is the only thing that matters.
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Cam McRae
8 years, 10 months ago
It was a sincere question but your answer did not seem sincere to me. From my perspective, if you are able to call out a trail (and by extension all of those people who volunteered their time and money to build it over three years) with words you should be able to defend your point with words. At the same time, if you prefer Seventh Secret (or AA for that matter) it seems unlikely that we'll find common ground.
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Jerry Willows
8 years, 10 months ago
I have to disagree the (new) Espresso is a poor line choice. It's been running strong for a few years now with no "Team Robot" corners. There was some nasty terrain in there but the trail drains really well. I would actually ride Expresso over Adonis any day.
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snowpig
7 years, 6 months ago
Riding down the sidewalk would be more challenging and enjoyable than riding down the new Expresso. No disrespect to you I love all your old school builds prob more than anyone still but there needs to be a balance and Expresso got murdered.
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Jerry Willows
7 years, 6 months ago
I understand where you are coming from but the old line is still there. I like old school trails and have only rode the new Expresso once but I would ride it over the old line any day. Should the old line be fixed up? Absolutely. Will it happen? Probably not.
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Paul Snyder
8 years, 10 months ago
F***ing amazing answer. And +1 for saying "janky."
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Merwinn
8 years, 10 months ago
People who whinge about what they have access to here, do not have the mental capacity to understand what they have here. People emigrate here because of the Shore. E-M-I-G-R-A-T-E. It is just THAT good.
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unclebob
8 years, 10 months ago
Complaining about a riding area is a first world problem we should all be so lucky to have. There are distinct riding areas available to all of us that offer so much, not just riding. Shore riding seems to be a style of trail. I am older and like the high speed flow but I still love the tech xc. I do like the use of "janky."
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Sho Mae
8 years, 10 months ago
How are 2pairs of socks $62. Must be very nice socks
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Jerry Willows
8 years, 10 months ago
they are…
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Matt L.
8 years, 10 months ago
Probably the best socks out there.
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James Becker
8 years ago
Hahahha I was about to ask the same thing. Now my consumerist brain is kicking in and I want those socks :O.
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