Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 2
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Nerding Out On Spoke Count

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This starts with a love story. Last fall I fell in love with a Scor 2030 on a non-intended test ride and impulsively decided to buy a frame. However, I was looking for some ways to shave some weight off the build. The test bike I rode had a Maxxis Dissector/Rekon tire combo that contributed to the playful nature of the 2030 but did not inspire confidence at all on steeper terrain. It was obvious to me that it needed better tires but I didn’t want the weight penalty that comes together with it.

Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 19

Until recently all my wheel builds would consist of DT Swiss XM481 rims with either 240 or 350 hubs, 32-spoke count, DT Swiss Competition spokes (2.0/1.8) and brass nipples. Using a lighter rim was off the table, so the only option at hand was to reduce spoke count, use lighter (thinner) spokes and aluminium nipples. I entered the rabbit hole and ordered DT Swiss Competition Race spokes (2.0/1.6), Sapim aluminium nipples and 28-hole rims.

Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 2

Feel free to call me a weight weenie, but in my mind the bike industry is currently overbuilding frames. Just to give you an example, I personally dislike in-frame storage because it increases frame weight. Also it’s obviously just a marketing trick for making normal mountain bikes look like e-bikes and ultimately being able to use the same frame for both in the future. Sounds like a conspiracy theory? You're probably right on that.

Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 1

Laced-up wheel waiting to be tensioned.

Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 14

My number one goal when building wheels: Even spoke tension.

Two very mediative evening sessions of wheel-building later I was contemplating a freshly built wheelset. Another two evenings of wrenching later the entire bike was assembled and ready for a first ride. It left me somewhat puzzled. The Scor 2030 climbed slower than my Transition Sentinel which had heavier wheels. Now when I say slower I mean slower by feel not by numbers (I’m in the anti-Strava camp).

How is this possible? The Scor had lighter wheels, less suspension, good climbing efficiency and was a touch lighter overall as well (although the frame of the Sentinel itself is significantly lighter).

First, let’s dig into the numbers.

28-spoke wheelset 32-spoke wheelset
Hubs DT Swiss 240 EXP 6-bolt DT Swiss 240 EXP 6-bolt
Rim DT Swiss XM481 29 DT Swiss XM481 29
Spokes DT Swiss Competition Race 2.0/1.6 DT Swiss Competition 2.0/1.8
Nipples Sapim Polyax Aluminium 2mm double square DT Swiss Pro Lock Squorx Brass 2.0/1.5mm
Washers DT Swiss DT Swiss
Rim Tape DT Swiss DT Swiss
Tubeless valve DT Swiss DT Swiss
Total weight 1880g (898g front/982g rear) 2032g (981g front/1055g rear)

On paper the lighter wheel should translate to easier climbing, right? Right? I mean, physics are physics. The real question however was: Would those differences be noticeable out in the woods or would they fade while riding? It was time for some comparisons and back-to-back laps with the two wheelsets.

My Transition Sentinel served as test mule (with a Thule trailer attached to transport the additional wheelset to the trail head). Both wheelsets had the same fresh tires installed (DHF/DHRII both EXO and MaxxTerra) the same tire pressure (1.45bar front / 1.75bar rear) and the same amount of tubeless sealant.

I spent two full days in the woods comparing them lap after lap. Testing conditions were wet, muddy and with very low traction. Any braking on roots would lead to instant disaster.

Let me start by saying that the most obvious difference in climbing performance happened when I removed the trailer. Now, that was a real game-changer. The different wheels? Not so much… but hang on.

I started the day with some very short laps on the middle section of a partly machine-built trail with berms and smaller jumps, switching wheelsets every 5 laps. Climbing on the fire road next to it, I was absolutely not able to tell a difference. I was a bit pissed because I thought that the climbs should be where I would feel the biggest difference. On the downhills the 32-spoke wheel was a bit more confidence inspiring when pushing into catch berms. Less vague and more predictable is my best try at describing the difference.

Later I switched to the top section of the same trail, which is longer and completely hand built. Following a small canyon with natural wall rides and jumps, it feels like a rollercoaster. It is more on the flowy side of things and very fun to ride. I must confess that I was not able to tell a difference between both wheelsets. Admitting this to myself was a hard process and part of this was to question my abilities to feel differences. Testing different bikes? Sure. Different suspension setups? Absolutely. Differently built wheels? Felt kind of the same.

Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 5

Riding the 32-spoke wheel on my Transition Sentinel in the Swiss alps.

A good night’s sleep later my motivation was back where I needed it. The first section of trail I started sessioning was also on a fire road climb with a faster, rougher trail than on the first day. I decided I needed to be more precise in my observations than just “general feel”. On the uphills I focused on the effort needed using the same gears in the same spots. Finally, I was able to notice differences on the uphill sections. Especially on the steeper climbing sections, the 32-spoke wheels required slightly more effort and felt a bit more like “tractoring”. Later I focused on where exactly I would feel the need to change to an easier gear. And again, I would shift down to bigger cogs slightly earlier with the 32-spoke wheels. Now, don’t let me fool you: it’s not a night and day difference. When just cruising along I could hardly tell the difference.

On this same section of trail (rough, fast) I also preferred the 28-spoke wheels when pointing downhill. They provided a tiny bit more grip and had slightly better vibration absorption over roots and braking bumps. At least until I discovered that my climb switch was still on. In my defence, the only occasion I use it is when carrying a trailer. With the climb switch off, those impressions on the downs became more nuanced, obviously because the suspension itself would help me with traction and bump absorption. At least I can safely say: the less suspension there is (hardtail fan camp I’m looking at you), the more you will benefit from more flexible wheels (fewer and thinner spokes in my case).

Later I switched to the lower trail section, also entirely hand-built with some medium-sized jumps and drops. I found the 28-spoke wheel to be a bit more eager to get airbone and to jump slightly higher with the same effort. On the flipside, the 32-spoke wheel felt better when pushing hard into corners where grip is not an issue.

Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 11

Weight matters!

To wrap it up, you might have noticed the heavy use of words like ‘slightly’ or ‘tiny bit’. That’s how I would describe the differences - they are more nuanced than in your face. Especially uphill, where I was certain the differences should be bigger. In that sense I failed at my initial goal of getting a snappier feeling bike for the climbs. Then again, the differences when descending were bigger than expected. The 32-spoke wheels feel a bit more precise and direct. The 28-spoke wheels on the other hand provide more traction and do a better job at filtering out vibrations. If only you could get the best of both worlds!

Up to this day I have spent many hours riding both wheelsets on different bikes and none of them ever needed any re-tensioning or significant re-truing (aside from a few broken spokes when sticks would get in the wheel). For my weight and riding style - think surgeon instead of butcher - I don't fear that the 28-spoke wheel will have a shorter lifespan.

About Nicolas Brunner

I'm lucky to live in a small town at the foot of the Jura mountain range in Switzerland with lots of old hiking trails and some hand-built trails right at my doorstep. I try my best at following my passions: being a dad, working as a software developer half of the week, showing friends our beautiful mountains as a mountain bike guide in summer and coaching aspiring ski instructors in the winter. I love all aspects of cycling, but my heart will sparkle most on multi-day adventures discovering unknown alpine terrain and trails.

Nerding out on spoke count - Nic Brunner 8

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Comments

cooperquinn
+15 Abies Pete Roggeman Timer canterbury BarryW cxfahrer Velocipedestrian Tehllama42 AlanB papa44 danimaniac vunugu Ryan ohio Shmarv

This is the content I'm here for. 

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bermed
+1 Shmarv

Same here...would actually love a review of the Thule bike trailer because I'm in the market for a trailer to haul around my kid with my gravel bike.

I noticed the Thule trailers are about 10 lb heavier than the similarly-specced Burley trailers so curious if that weight makes a difference.

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MikeDKittmer
+6 Pete Roggeman Matt Cusanelli Lynx . XXX_er ultimatist Skooks

Appreciate the focus on even spoke tension. Back in the days I was building wheels for customers (18+ years back) I’d tune by sound, like tuning a guitar. There surely are more accurate means but this gave good results alongside other techniques like tensioning the spokes prior to a final tune.

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andrewbikeguide
+1 Andy Eunson Shmarv Kristian Øvrum

Nice!. That's how Easton was checking their spoke tune when they started making mountain bike wheels. Not sure if they still do. Personally I think a hand gauge is easier and more consistent than hoping that one's wheel builder has a music ear that can tell the correct pitch for a correctly tuned CX-Ray on that spoke length for that rim/ hub combo!!

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Lynx
+5 Timer Matt Cusanelli BarryW lkubica Andy Eunson Shmarv Kristian Øvrum

Hey Nicolas, nicely written piece and welcome change to the norm here, think we need more of these pieces. You're a lucky man, looks like an amazing place you live, great riding.

Not even 100g saved on each wheel, not even close to worth it IMHO with bikes like that, I'll stick to my 32 hole rims, J-bend Competition spokes (can find j-bend anywhere in the world if you need) and alu nipples for alu rims and brass for carbon rims or if I want to never have to look at the build again.

If you really like even spoke tensions, I think you owe it to yourself to try building up a wheelset using offset rims, if you want to know about almost identical tensions and strong wheels, these will give that to you, then you can drop spoke count without worry of loosing much strength compared to a normally drilled rim.

As to checking and trying to keep spoke tensions super, super close, yeah, tried that years ago, found that it really didn't make a world of difference with modern wider rims, they're super easy to build compared to the super thin noodles of yesteryear. I'll check by feel that none are seriously off, but I don't even bother with using a tension meter anymore, I just do them up so they feel good to the squeeze test, rim isn't hoping up and down or side to side and then when I'm hogging on them to let out any spokes twist/tension, if I get more than 1 release, I know I'm still not high enough on my tension and do a check to see.

Small suggestion if you're looking to reduce rolling resistance, but keep grip, maybe look at another brand besides Maxxis, they tend to need to run heavy to be durable, you can find other brands that are lighter and just as durable and offer same sort of grip.

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MrNico
+1 Shmarv

Thanks, appreciate the feedback!

Offset rims indeed sound interesting, never worked on one or ridden one. Wonder if there are significant drawbacks to them, since they don't seem to be very popular?

Hah, I might be an outlier but I seem to get away with EXO-casing Maxxis tires. Typically MaxxGrip front and MaxxTerra rear. However I have some Schwalbe Radial tires waiting to be mounted for testing (although I doubt they will reduce rolling resistance).

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Lynx
+2 Nicolas Brunner Andy Eunson Shmarv Kristian Øvrum

@Nicolas - yeah, offset rims don't seem to be too popular now, although Trek does use them a lot in their in house wheels, so you'll have to do some looking around - know DT Swiss doesn't do them for sure, WTB only offers their carbon rim in an offset now, but Race Face still do theirs, which I've used in the i40 variant and had no issues with.

If there are any drawbacks to offset rims, I sure as heck haven't found any, they build super easy, can use the same length spokes on both DS/NDS and spoke tension is within 5-10% depending on how much offset, hub & flange spacing etc., The ones I used to use were WTB Asym and never had any issues myself or other people I've built them for bring them back, heck I was told that a couple of the heavier guys they sold the bikes, but kept the wheels, if that says anything to you.

As to tyres, I'm currently experimenting with some Conti Cross Kings for XC/Light Trail and also have a Vottoria Agarro mounted up on a front rim to swap in when I want something a bit more upfront. Would also like to try the Agarro in back with a Mazza upfront. No real time on the Vittoria yet though as the Cross Kings are proving to be quite good tyres that offer a lot more than the small XC knobs might indicate. Also have only now built back up my Prime and rainy season is only now petering out, so those types of trails are only now being cleared and ridden.

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ohio
-1 Shmarv

All my wheels run offset rims (several different chinese carbon options, e.g. BTLOS wm-i30AS, which means not only more even tension, but fewer spare spokes. I see lots of upside, and no downside. Stans CB7 and Mk4 (welded alloy) models all have an offset profile as well.

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danimaniac
0

Hey Nicolas, 

I just finished building a set of wheels around the ltd edition DEH Hubs from DT and laced them to Duke Rims.

They have the "Sisters" with wider front than rear and are drilled offset.

The Fury Star rims are a great alternative to the XM481

I then used Sapim Race (2/1,8/2) and D-Light (2/1.65/2) spokes and get very even tension to both sides of the wheel this way. Going for thinner spokes with the longer spokes also helps evening out the tension.

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andrewbikeguide
+1 chaidach

@Nicolas Brunner. If you want grip, fast rolling, good longevity and lighter weight then try Wolfpack tyres. Owned by the same guy who helped develop Black Chilli for Conti, Addix for Schwalbe and better compounds for Specialized. Also about half the price where you live.

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danimaniac
0

Specialized Butcher and Eliminator in T9/T7 are awesome!

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sanesh-iyer
+3 Pete Roggeman Cooper Quinn Matt Cusanelli

Loved this. 

Also let's go ride bikes, I'm in Zürich!

Reply

rnayel
+12 itsky21 Deniz Merdano Pete Roggeman Matt Cusanelli Mammal Jotegir Sanesh Iyer Timer Velocipedestrian AndrewR danimaniac Skooks

Having ridden bikes with Sanesh, I highly recommend it. Top notch riding buddy, and very good looking. Increases the handsomeness of your ride crew by 80 to 100%.

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MrNico
0

Thanks!

I do work in Zurich, so why not :) 

I'll certainly be at the Zurich CycleWeek in mai to hop on a few new bikes.

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denomerdano
+2 Sanesh Iyer BarryW

Great bike and great test. My stock rear wheel decided to detension itself the other day. Quick trailside retension later i was good to go.

I think the difference between rim materials are far more noticeable than the amount of spokes on the wheel. Spoke tension also has massive influence on how the bike rides. The 2030 is a strange bike. Sometimes i like how spritely it is with a exo DHF / Rekon combo , some days i wish i had more tire underneath me for more careless line choices. What do appreciate the most is a Tannus insert with the Exo casing Rekon on that bike. Allows for speed and protection at the same time. I don't use inserts on my bigger bikes but i do on the 2030.

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Kenny
+2 dhr999 BarryW

Agreed on all counts. Very cool test and bike, and agree on rim material. Granted, I still have an XM481 on the front of my hardtail, but to me, aluminum rims have just become a bit irrelevant on my bikes meant for "serious" riding. 

I think 28 spoke carbon wheels are the way to go. I think when Santa Cruz realized their first version of reserve wheels were just too darn stiff, dropping to 28 spokes improved ride quality, reduced weight, and even reduced their production costs slightly. I think they changed the rim layup as well, but the difference in ride quality is dramatic. 

They do make more funny noises though (need to check spoke tension actually). I've also had 28 spoke and 32 spoke WR1 unions and found the 28 spoke rode nicer, but still prefer the reserve that were fundamentally designed as 28 spoke.

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Lelandjt
0 Kenny Shmarv

In 2013 all Santa Cruz bikes started coming with 28 spoke wheels, whether specced with alloy WTB or Enve carbon rims. This continued through the move to Easton & Reserve rims. There was never a 32 spoke Reserve wheel.

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Kenny
0

That's my bad! I thought that was one of the changes they made but I guess they were just rim related. Still interesting to note though, as that means they were able to get from a rim almost universally rated as "too stiff" to something almost universally rated as having a nice ride feel, both on 28 spokes. That said their dh wheels are still 32 spoke I think.

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pete@nsmb.com
+1 Shmarv

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andrewbikeguide
+2 Lynx . Shmarv

The main difference between 32H and 28H for some people (guides for example) is that a 32H will still run relatively true with a broken spoke (eg when a guest steps on your wheel?) where as a 28H is more likely to 'dish' and roll with a significant wobble.

Less of an issue with disc brakes than it used to be with rim brakes however still annoying if it means riding out for 2-3 days with a wonky wheel.

Also in my experience using We Are One (& Nobl before that) carbon rims over the past nine years is that a well built wheel set running quality carbon rims does not de-tension and "check spoke tension and re-truing" is a maintenance check that can (almost) be skipped.

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Lynx
+1 AndrewR

Yeah, can't say I can recall ever having a wheel go out of true from a spoke breaking on any of my 32 hole wheels, the newer ones at least and have had friends ride on 28 hole with a broken spoke and wheel had just the slightest of wobble.

@AndrewR - yeah, I've heard some people who are "wheel builders" tell people they should bring them back for a re-tension after a couple rides - that's utter horse shite, a properly built wheel that has had all the wind up/tension released from them and is to the right actual spoke tension, should not need looking at again unless you have a hard hit, break a spoke or some such.

alexdi
+1 BarryW dave_f Shmarv

> Spoke tension also has massive influence on how the bike rides. 

If the spokes aren't going slack, spoke tension has no effect at all.

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ultimatist
-1 Alex D

You'll feel more damping and lateral twist in the rims if you adjust spokes in the safety window. This is why pros adjust their wheels.

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xy9ine
+5 BarryW Timer Andy Eunson DancingWithMyself AJ Barlas

i've heard some wcdh techs talk about tension tuning wheelsets, but as alex mentions, unless tension goes so low that spokes are going slack under compression (which generally isn't advisable, as the rim is much more prone to failure events), varying spoke tension is generally thought to have little effect on wheel stiffness (lots of nerdy discussion & empirical testing out there to support this). spoke count, spoke diameter, and bracing angle / lacing pattern will have some effect, and rim stiffness even more.

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MrNico
+1 Deniz Merdano

Thanks Deniz!

And yes, the 2030 is really a bit of an outlier. It is so capable for what it is but then again not really more efficient on the climbs than bigger bikes IMHO. The risk of over-building is definitely there.

I'm currently experimenting with different air cans on the shock, since with the regular air can I was heavily relying on the HBO.

Interesting take on the Tannus insert. I have mostly stayed away from inserts until now, but might give it a try!

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Timer
+2 T0m Andy Eunson DancingWithMyself mnihiser

Interesting!

I’m surprised you were able to feel a difference at all. I probably wouldn’t have. 

Assuming tyres are 1000g each, there is not even a 4% difference in weight between the two wheelsets. And with fairly strong rims like the XM481, the effects of reduced spoke count are likely fairly muted.

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itsky21
+2 Pete Roggeman BarryW

Very well written article! Just the right amount of tech and story telling! Nice! 

Interesting results to be sure and kudos for the efforts on the wheel build and testing to be as "scientific" as possible. 

I ride a few days a week and only keep one bike at a time. I carefully select all of the components and have a medium budget, thus back to back to testing is pretty much impossible for me. 

A couple of years ago, I had similar goals, to shave some weight and get good ride feel. I'm 88KG and selected We Are One Faction carbon rims 27mm internal in 32 hole Sappim race spokes. So I was thinking strength from 32 spokes, and quality carbon rims. They held up really well and I have no real complaints. 

But since I can't compare, I'm am curious about if going 30mm internal and 28H would have been a better call. 

Do you think switching to 30mm internal and 28H spokes would have better met my goals of weight reduction and ride quality?

Good stuff, would like to read more articles from the author.

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pete@nsmb.com
+5 BarryW dhr999 DancingWithMyself jordaño Shmarv

It should be noted that, as a typical Swiss, Nicolas speaks at least three languages and I believe English is his third - and the editing required for that article was minimal.

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MrNico
+3 BarryW itsky21 Shmarv

Thanks, always appreciate kind words!

I really can't answer your questions. I mostly ride aluminium rims (carbon rims only on test bikes so far). In my book the question on 27 vs 30mm internal width is unrelated to 28 vs 32 spokes. And here again: I have not ridden 27mm (or narrower) internal width rims since a long time. 

I guess you need to find some tester WAO Carbon rims in 30mm internal width and 28 spokes and find out yourself ;)

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shoreboy
+2 BarryW Bikes

Interesting experiment. Would have been even better if it were setup as a blind comparison?

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32x20
+2 Timer Kristian Øvrum

Nice read. One can be anti-Strava and still time some segments, though. Humans are notoriously bad at connecting feel and speed. I still don’t think there’d be a difference, but you’re so precise and data driven on the build.

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craw
+1 itsky21 Taz123 Brian Tuulos Andy Eunson BarryW Timer ultimatist dhr999 Matt Cusanelli

Hey everybody, the 70kg rider thinks bikes and wheels are overbuilt.

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pete@nsmb.com
+11 Timer Sebov itsky21 Cr4w ultimatist Lynx . Cooper Quinn Niels van Kampenhout Matt Cusanelli BarryW DancingWithMyself

Isn't that exactly the same as you thinking things are under built?

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Sebov
+2 Andy Eunson BarryW

Yep. I have 75 kg and I really don’t need all this super stiff stuff (frames, wheels, bars, suspension). Things don’t break any more like years ago but for me a lot of things are not comfortable 

Regarding the spokes: main rotating weight are still the tires, sealant and rims.

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craw
+4 Andy Eunson BarryW Nicolas Brunner Kristian Øvrum

My complaint is that there often isn't an objective way to determine stiffness so that different sized people can get a legitimate sense of what to expect. As long as things are scaled up and down to deliver appropriate stiffness to the various sizes I'm happy. Whether they actually deliver those outlier sizes is another story.

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alexdi
+4 Cr4w Timer BarryW ZigaK

Anyone with an engineering background could assemble a jig to measure lateral and radial wheel stiffness. The problem is that the Venn diagram of engineers and cyling journalists has essentially no overlap, so you get a bunch of wholly subjective sample-of-one placebo-driven wine-tasting opinions that don't translate for anyone who isn't the reviewer.  

Which is exactly what brands want because there's little to distinguish most cycling products. Absent objective data, your marketing department can claim anything and people will go for it. Audio is the same.

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Lelandjt
+2 Timer BarryW

Peak Torque (cycling engineer w/YT channel) did exactly this because lateral stiffness in road wheels is important. The new carbon spoke wheels won the day.

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pete@nsmb.com
+1 dhr999

I don't think the overbuilt/underbuilt argument concerns only stiffness, though. Obviously it's an element, but I think we're also talking about durability here.

Some companies tune ride characteristics based on sizing - Specialized being a notable example - but it adds cost. Drawing from the average riding population, most people don't consider/appreciate a lot of factors that contribute to quality frames, as evidenced by the number of comments you'll see about costs and component choices, and not a lot about what are often more subtle refinements that good brands put into their frames. To an extent, brands are to blame but I think carbon frames concealed in paint also makes them seem homogenous to many riders.

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Timer
+2 BarryW Kristian Øvrum

If brands were really interested in tuning ride feel to rider size (and therefore weight), they could easily do it without costly frame engineering changes. Just spec different parts for the sizes. No reason a size S enduro bike needs a DH rated 800mm bar. And that size XXL bike would certainly be better served with a stronger wheel set and bigger brake rotors. 

So I’m not entirely convinced that Specialized is actually investing any money towards this goal, since they don’t seem to grab even the low hanging fruits.

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pete@nsmb.com
+2 dhr999 danimaniac Bogey Kristian Øvrum

You are pretending it's easy to make those spec changes - it's not. Particularly in recent years. I'm not sure why you think companies wouldn't just grab that low hanging fruit if they could. Honestly, sometimes this kind of cynicism is hard to understand. Yes, bar choices for example can be made differently. But buckle up for higher prices, because now you're asking for a more complicated BOM (Bill Of Materials) for each model. It's possible, yes, but it costs more. Your shop will gladly take that 800mm bar and put a more appropriate one on the bike at minimal or no cost - so what would you prefer? A chance to save a little, or a guarantee that you won't?

And you're misinformed about Specialized. I say this because I know - they spec difference shapes, gauges, and amounts of all kinds of different carbon in different frame sizes. It's literally a different recipe for each frame size. I'm sure other brands do this - definitely not all of them - but I can't definitively say which ones.

Timer
+1 Kristian Øvrum

The cost argument doesn’t strike me as convincing. Considering that cost has not prevented companies from making glove boxes, size specific chainstays, elaborate idler constructions and offering dozens of different component builds. Size specific dropper lengths and sometimes even wheel sizes don’t seem to be  prohibitively expensive either.

In the past, lots of improvements have happened not because some benevolent corporate behemoth (an impossibility in our system of capitalist extremism) decided to grant it, but because we as customers have loudly and repeatedly demanded it. Much higher hanging fruit have become common standards this way. Why not size specific components?

Bikes
-1 Kristian Øvrum

Marketing likely trumps.  Try selling someone on a small frame that a 31.8mm or even smaller stem is good when all they see is articles on stiffness and bigger is better.

ultimatist
+3 BarryW Morgan Heater Kristian Øvrum

Speed and riding aggression are exponentially more impactful (literally) on the bike. Weight is an easy to compare metric but doesn't define what setup you need.

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Kenny
+6 ultimatist Pete Roggeman BarryW Velocipedestrian rscecil Morgan Heater

I hear people say this, because inertia is proportional to the square of velocity and only linearly with mass, which is fair,  but only a partial view, because force itself is mass x acceleration (both impact force applied linearly). 

So consider cornering load. It's proportional to the mass, and the acceleration. So a faster rider will have a more rapid angular acceleration through the corner and proportionally more load up, based on speed, but if the rider is actively pumping the corner, that also adds to it. Now take a 225lb rider and a 150lb rider who are roughly equivalently strong, pound per pound. So say both can deadlift their bodyweight for the same number of reps (I'm just making a loose comparison here as something that might indicate how much force they can impart into the bike independently, as this is a bit of a force multiplier on trail forces ). 

In that case the 225lb rider is generating more force due to their static mass, AND more force due to their overall strength. Intuitively this means they certainly don't need to go the same speed to inflict similar or greater forces into the bike that a proportionately lighter, but faster rider)

Speed and riding style matters for sure, but people underrate weight when considering a proportional strength increase. 

I am about 210 and even if I'm following a 150lb rider who's a little faster than me, you can tell just by the sound that I'm much harder on parts. My riding partners comment on this fairly regularly, and my bike is set up pretty quiet - again not scientific evidence by any means haha but just a data point.

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ultimatist
+1 BarryW

You are correct in your anecdote about following the 150lb rider. The speed one can carry thru a turn tends to have a ceiling, so a pro is not riding twice as fast as an enthusiast. That said, going 30% faster is more damaging than carrying 30% more weight.

Most of the dramatic wear on our vehicles come from singular high speed shocks. Like tearing your tire and bending your rim on a single highway pothole, not from thousands of parking lot speed bumps. Back to the OP on "under or overbuilt", I believe one should consider line choice, trail conditions, speed, then weight (probably in that order) to determine what bike and components meet spec.

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andy-eunson
+1 BarryW Velocipedestrian Garry Ogletree

Wheel and tire weight make a difference but not that much. What does make a difference is faster rolling tires. Last summer I got a pair of Bontrager Saint Anne RSL XC race tires for my hardtail. Who boy did that make a difference. But I flatted the rear which is the risk of running tires like that. Next up was a pair of Montrose RSL. almost as fast rolling but more skookum. I might not use these when it’s wet and slippery but when things are dry tires like this are great.

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ultimatist
+1 BarryW

Nice test/article! These days - after a proper initial spoke tuning - I resort to plucking and minor truing on the rare occasions the wheels are off. Only really happens on my gravel bike. I believe the amazing tubeless tires we have now make life so much easier on the wheel components.

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Lelandjt
+1 BarryW

Your "lightweight" wheels weigh more than my DH bike's 32 spoke wheels. They're over 1 1/4lb heavier than my trail bike's wheels. I'm not surprised they don't feel sprightly on climbs or that a 28 spoke alloy rim feels flexy.

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Slinger
+1 BarryW

Years ago in my bmx days, my front wheel became "decommissioned", and swapped a spare on for a day or 2. Went from a 36 to a 48 spoke in a 20" wheel and the difference was immediate. Tables and general bike handling in the air, especially riding a bowl was wild at first. Different use case, but I'm sure there's carry over, especially with a much larger 29" wheel. Same hours for putting a skinnier tire up front "streetbike" style. Big wtf is wrong moment!

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Polymath
+1 Kristian Øvrum

Great article.  One day I want to get around to building my own wheels; I can do everything else.  But wheel building, especially GOOD wheels, is an art.  Science (in terms of the spoke tension) is a huge part, but the human touch, the art, takes it to another level.  I used to get all my wheels built from Dan Sedlacek (DanSed Wheels) at On Top and they were all bombproof.  I have a wheel set built in 2006 still going strong on Shore use by Duke Pakdee when he was a mechanic at On Top and now owns Alley Cat Bikes in Bellingham.  I have abused those wheels and they are still going....some dings and dents but still true.  Even more impressive is the Hadley hubs they are laced to.....18 years and still as new....no free hub rebuild or bearing changes.  No slop.  Amazing.  This is why good hubs matters to good wheels.   Put a bad hub in a well built wheel and it is for nothing.  Get the best hubs you can for a "personalized" wheel build.  It pays off in the long run, trust me.

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MrNico
+3 BarryW dhr999 Andy Eunson danimaniac Kristian Øvrum

Thanks.

To be honest, I don't think it's as difficult as most people seem to think. It's actually fairly straightforward and good tools (truing stand and especially spoke tension meter if you're starting out) will always help. My first try at a wheel build is still going strong on my Dirt Jumper.

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mikesee
+1 Andy Eunson

For 98+% of riders, a single 'pssst' of air out of each tire is going to be more noticeable and provide a more meaningful difference in ride quality or traction than the weight difference in the wheels tested here.

That said, I love it when people experiment and learn these sorts of things for themselves.  Chapeau.

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cxfahrer
0

Back in the days when wheels were 26" and rims only 23mm wide, I had some bad experiences with DT Revo spokes (1.5) and very unprecise steering. Better rims and half 1.5 and 1.8 on the other side were rideable, but the 1.5 did not like contact with rocks and broke too easily. Tires are where the weight is! 

Since factory DT wheels (other I did not try) are so damn good and cheap (RCZ!) , I never again built wheels myself. E.g. the XM1700 that came on my Canyon.

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jt
+2 Lynx . cxfahrer Mike Ferrentino Kristian Øvrum

Wooooof. Revolution spokes were such a pita. Tension had to be so dead nuts on yet they still felt like you were riding a bike with ultralight TI QR skewers. Try to eek a bit more tension out of em and then the elongation yield kicks in and you just killed a $3 (I think? Been awhile but they were def not inexpensive) spoke. We found we could get near the same weight but way better ride and durability out of the DB 1.8s at less cost.

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lkubica
0 T0m dhr999

I weight 75kg and also ride like a surgeon and believe me, 28h rear wheel will have a shorter lifespan or at least you will need to true it more often. It's a pity DT went for 28h rims. I am back to 32h for rear wheels.

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ultimatist
0

If you're talking about 27.5 rear, I think it cancels out the spoke reduction. I just bought a set of WAO Convergences, and I like their 28/32 default build for all trail and enduro rims.

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BarryW
-1 dhr999

Great article! 

I'm not sure I believe it wasn't all placebo but it was enjoyable to read and interesting. 

Also interesting is that I was giving the trail bike a quick once over before a long ride tomorrow and found two loose spokes on the rear wheel. But I did the 'by feel' program in about a minute rather than grab the tension meter. It's useful for sure, but feel it's pretty good for me. Even though I never trust feel for tire pressure! Lol. 

But it really seems the 28 spoke isn't worth the possible decrease in durability.

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